Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Fuzzbutt]

If your only complaint about 10/25 is that 10 man gets rid of the spacing issues, you need to learn to not stand in the fire. Other than not standing in the fire (and having to watch range check a little closer on certain fights?) the modes can be tuned very closely in difficulty.

In 25 man, you have more resources (dps/tanks/heals), but have to watch your positioning a little more. In 10 man you have less resources, but have slightly more range of movement (you do still have to stay in range of boss/tanks/raid to dps/heal/etc).

If you're complaining about difficulty, then shut up and turn on hard modes. "Casuals" getting welfares doesn't diminish the difficulty for you. If raid content was still designed for the 1%, almost everyone in this thread would be part of the 99%. That means no progression raiding for you, which means that almost everyone in this thread would still be in Naxx or Uld while the world's best were downing LK right now.

You're being ALLOWED to participate in the current content. Without these policies in place, you would be the "casual" or "bad." If you want content that less than 10% of the population will down, turn on hard modes. If you can't do EVERY hard mode flawlessly, without the 15% buffs, then shut up and improve yourself before you start whining about casuals.

[Keo]

Bullshit, for the majority of examples. Lana'thel is valid, Defile on the LK to a degree, which you didn't mention. People failing to run out of fire is not a spacing issue. When you need to keep people spread out is.

So you're saying Saurfang HM was a non issue with spacing to avoid Blood Nova? That with more kiting space in 10m, 25HM Rotface wasn't harder? That 25HM Festergut, with the goo, isn't easier to avoid in 10m?

I'll guess I'll make it short before I log for the night, in 10 man, you have more luxury to move around where you won't run into someone or get grouped up when you shouldn't whereas in 25m, RNG will almost always screw some people over(getting spore on fester and a goo heading towards YOU at the same time forcing your whole grp to move).

[Venya]

How you balance this hard modes 1 death=wipe it doesnt matter if its 10 man or 25 man one death and its wipe.

10 man there is 10 peeps who can make mistake 25 man there is 25 man its 2,5x players how can make mistake leading to wipe.

Normal mode i think balance can be done i think at least partly hard mode no.

[Deleted]

Totally agree with the 4 diffrent version. The main change now is that you can ONLY kill it in one version per week.

Number of ppl does not make the bosses any more epic. Its the tuning of the boss that controls that. If it was about numbers of players then the open world bosses that could be killed by 100-200 ppl (if you wanted) were the most epic. They are not.

Im in no way saying this change is perfect. I still think its a step in the right direction

You missed my second sentence?

[yónacul]

Hi guys

If 10 man raids are so easy, why are there so few people with an Amani War Bear

Simple answer ZA was Hard and i think it was a 10 man raid

[Oziriz]

It is amazing how many people actually do_not_read the actual post. By comparing future (something you haven't seen or tried yet) 10man raids by current first tier raids (naxx10, that was NEVER hard) can be 4 manned by people in blues.

I have been a 40man raider in Vanilla and I was fucking disappointed that Blizzard got rid of that concept. Because I was used to the epicness of the 40 people killing a big ass boss. But TBC came and I fell in love with 25man raiding, it was easier to organize and you had a lot better control over your guild in general. Now WotLK, worst expansion yet (except Ulduar). I hated that naxx was to easy, I hated that atunements where not needed. No CC in raids and worst of all I hated 10 and 25 man versions of the same instance, with different lockouts. Where 10man got worse loot, just because you needed less people? 10 Mans where never intended that way....

After our guild fell apart in TotGC25 I switched to 10man raiding and found out how much more awesome it was. I was raiding with 9 buddies which I had known since Vanilla WoW. The only thing was, that I felt left out on something, just because I wasn't in a 25man raiding guild.

If blizzard is able to balance 10man raids so that they are equally as hard as the 25man version (as much as they can) then I do NOT see the problem at all, in fact it would be freaking awesome. I do understand what people are QQing about, because it's change for a longest time in this world, people do not like change, they fear it. They get used to something and want to keep it that way, because it works for them. What are you afraid of? More competition from 10man raiding guilds?

The only reason I play this game is to have fun with friends I know IRL or have met in-game. if it's with 10 people, 25 people, 40 people or 5... that and the fact that its a chalange is why the game is fun.

[Styrka]

Hi guys

If 10 man raids are so easy, why are there so few people with an Amani War Bear

Simple answer ZA was Hard and i think it was a 10 man raid

Unlike the 25 man version of it?

[yónacul]

Unlike the 25 man version of it?

You Seriously think there was a 25 man ZA

I rest my case lol

[Styrka]

You Seriously think there was a 25 man ZA

I rest my case lol

No, wich is exactly my point. See what I did there. You cant bring up old Stratholm, ZG, AQ20 and ZA in this conversation since we are currently debating 10 vs 25 and those instances didnt excist in 25 or 40 versions. So... whos resting whos case :P

[yónacul]

No, wich is exactly my point. See what I did there. You cant bring up old Stratholm, ZG, AQ20 and ZA in this conversation since we are currently debating 10 vs 25 and those instances didnt excist in 25 or 40 versions. So... whos resting whos case

The point is people on here are saying in genral, and ofc not every one that 10 man raids can not be hard, my example demonstrates this is not the case, a further example would be 10 man 3 drakes how many nighfall titles did u see beefore u could just zerg it

Rest

[Styrka]

The point is people on here are saying in genral, and ofc not every one that 10 man raids can not be hard, my example demonstrates this is not the case, a further example would be 10 man 3 drakes how many nighfall titles did u see beefore u could just zerg it

Rest

I think 25 man raiding guilds also enjoyed S3D 10 man cause it was harder. 1 boss in one instance during one expansion. Somehow I doubt most/majority of encounters in Cata will be like that. Also difficulty or not, like previous post said, the big raids did make this game stand out. Its cause it felt as if the hassle of managing the larger guilds where rewarding not only with the good feeling but with some extra shiney loot. Now it seems there wont be much point in the extra time and struggle to manage these larger guilds. Thats a shame.

[yónacul]

I do agree it will probally be the demise of 25 man guilds, which is a shame, but in my mind i still think in the vast majority of cases it easier to caryy a not very well geared or good player in a 25 man group thatn it is in 10 man a sarth 10/25 3 drakes would clearly show this, and if u lost a guy on za u was prob not gonna do the timer, i supose we will have to wait and see there is always the guild ranking system maybe that will save 25 mans

[Nexiuz]

you're saying that like there isn't a personal aspect of 25 mans at all and we don't know a majority of people in 25 man raidsplease explain to me what fight in ulduar is harder with 10 people the only fight I can think of this expansion that was harder is 3d sarth

Okay, I maybe did not make it so clear as I could. I like the social asspect more of 10 man because its more personal. I'm in a 25 man raiding guild and ofc I know the most ppl and also socialize with them. But in the 10 man guild I was in it was a more closer group. That's just a personal thing (I said that also).

I can think of The Assembly of Iron hardmode for example. From what I remember the 10 man version was more diffecult then the 25 man. But yes, most of the fights are harder on 25 man. But Blizz also said that they want to change that.

[Nexiuz]

I'd like to add that 10 mans being as hard as 25 mans is but a dream. The spacing issue itself is too huge... 10 people compared to 25 makes many fights a lot easier.
I only see 25 mans scaling down to cater to 10 man difficulty so they can be "balanced".
Not to mention organizing a 10 man is much easier than organizing a 25 man, why go through all the trouble when you can do 10m?

It was the same in 25man, when my guild hit 25m TOGC our tanks we're getting gimped but after a few more pulls we pulled it off in HM Ulduar gear+normal TOC gear. My point is, a few ilvls higher in gear is not the answer to all your questions when tanks are still getting 2 shot in 10 man togc. It's the ability to familiarize with the dmg and overcoming and anticipating it that wins you the battle. Yes, I went into TOGC the second week it was out and in a few pieces of TOC25M gear but I don't believe ~200 more hp made the difference between a kill or not, majority of my gear was STILL HM Ulduar gear. Though I see the validity in your point, you're pushing that gear is more important than skill and that gear will almost compensate for poor play and that I strongly disagree.

I'm not saying that gear makes the differents, but it still helps. But in ToGC10 when the boss have 6 stacks of that dmg increasement and you got a warrior tank with only 10 man gear then it makes the encounter more diffecult. (btw the difference was a bit more then only ~200 hp)

[Deleted]

Once you needed 40 people to kill Ragnaros, now You will need 10ppl to defeat Deathwing.

Haha ye, talk about killing the epic feeling! Its really sad.

Cool lore bosses should be the hardest and require the most amount of people and drop the best loot. Its really is that simple. Someone that choose to play more and be succesful should get better loot. Casuals that want fun dungeons should get it too, but they shouldnt complain about not have access to same bosses or loot. Blizzard could have solved this is so easily by ignoring loot wh0res and make epic 5man dungeons with 10 bosses for example. Along with unique 10man dungons that doesnt have 25man version, just like tbc. I played my share of casual in vanilla and tbc and didnt have any problem with having less gear, it just made it more fun actually when you killed them in pvp. Also back then 5man dungoens were fun and you needed to CC. Not rollover like them are now. Fucking sh1t really.

[cerbul]

I am really unhappy that the WotLK heroics are too easy, unlike TBC heroics were. For me in TBC was like: I get home from work, I enter the daily heroic, I strugle to get a group, try to get best ppl possible for it, and when I hardly finished it I went for evening raid.
I was actualy having something fun to do out of raid times.
Ofc when it was about grinding was not fun at all, and I was trying to avoid grinding for gold as much as possible.

Now the random dungeon is just a tool used by Blizz to bring more players into raiding.
Blizz, will you ever consider to make the heroics have different levels of difficulty and drop gear/badges/gold based on the ilevel required to do that difficulty mode? I am really bored to have nothing to raid out of raiding times.. I really loved the heroics.
And now you take away from us also the 10 ppl version of the dungeons..
Lucky that I ahve an alt, though.

[Rootofalleli]

You
are
confusing
"casuals"
with
"bads".

Read it 'til you get it, retard...

OK, let's rewind to where you said this:

I've yet to see one valid argument showing me how this will make content more accessible. As of right now, content is pretty much as accessible as you can get. Pugs are clearing 12/12 ICC 10 normal and upwards of 11/12 25 normal on a number of servers. How is this going to change anything in Cata? As it stands, the arguments for it are really just masking the fact that people think they're entitled to BiS loot, regardless of how much time or effort they devote to the game. That's fine and all, but acting like it's currently hard to raid 25s is a flat out lie. Really couldn't be any easier.

This change isn't going to make anything more accessible. All it will probably end up accomplishing is making content easier across the board through Blizzard's inability to balance correctly.

This is what I'm really arguing against. I play on a server that just isn't very good, except on the horde side, which is decent. I don't want to pay for transfers and either convince my friends to do the same or stop raiding with them. If you play on a server that is loaded with talent, gratz to you. For a lot of people though, 25m raids are not as easy as can be. Spending more time raiding would result in more progress, if only people's schedules allowed for that. So right now my guild is at 7/12 in regular IC25, and no Alliance guild on my server has more than 10/12 down. Maybe that makes you say "HURP DERP RETARDS!!!" and yeah, I probably say it too when someone in my guild gets hit by Malleable Goo yet again or finds a way to pull crap dps despite having solid gear.

But here's where you're really wrong: as lame as my guild is, there are thousands far worse, who could throw their bodies at Festergut or Rotface for hours and still find new ways to wipe. Even if there were half as many players as accounts (no way this is true), that would mean a whopping 4% or so of players had beaten 25m Arthas. Still a tiny, elite minority.

Anyway, your point, if there is one, is all over the place in this thread. All you really convey is disgust for people with less WoW success and anger at the thought that they might one day have more e-property similar to yours. The sad thing is that you're not even reasonable in these fears: plenty of people will still struggle to raid and progress. Guilds that can handle hard modes and get the best stuff will- brace yourself- continue to stand out. Maybe you play on a great server that attracts a lot of skilled players, but not everyone does. If you want to get a better sense of how high and mighty you are, transfer your guild to some mediocre server where the demographics of boss kills more closely match the game as a whole.

[TabascoEU]

I think 25 man raiding guilds also enjoyed S3D 10 man cause it was harder. 1 boss in one instance during one expansion. Somehow I doubt most/majority of encounters in Cata will be like that. Also difficulty or not, like previous post said, the big raids did make this game stand out. Its cause it felt as if the hassle of managing the larger guilds where rewarding not only with the good feeling but with some extra shiney loot. Now it seems there wont be much point in the extra time and struggle to manage these larger guilds. Thats a shame.

We did 10 man S3D first because it was easier for us to do so, also server first, so don't think it was done late or anything. Why was it easier. Because it was a 10man, and it is always easier to get 10 great players all playing well during a fight than to do the same with 25.

[Ksmota]

OK, let's rewind to where you said this:
This is what I'm really arguing against. I play on a server that just isn't very good, except on the horde side, which is decent. I don't want to pay for transfers and either convince my friends to do the same or stop raiding with them. If you play on a server that is loaded with talent, gratz to you. For a lot of people though, 25m raids are not as easy as can be. Spending more time raiding would result in more progress, if only people's schedules allowed for that. So right now my guild is at 7/12 in regular IC25, and no Alliance guild on my server has more than 10/12 down. Maybe that makes you say "HURP DERP RETARDS!!!" and yeah, I probably say it too when someone in my guild gets hit by Malleable Goo yet again or finds a way to pull crap dps despite having solid gear.

But here's where you're really wrong: as lame as my guild is, there are thousands far worse, who could throw their bodies at Festergut or Rotface for hours and still find new ways to wipe. Even if there were half as many players as accounts (no way this is true), that would mean a whopping 4% or so of players had beaten 25m Arthas. Still a tiny, elite minority.

Anyway, your point, if there is one, is all over the place in this thread. All you really convey is disgust for people with less WoW success and anger at the thought that they might one day have more e-property similar to yours. The sad thing is that you're not even reasonable in these fears: plenty of people will still struggle to raid and progress. Guilds that can handle hard modes and get the best stuff will- brace yourself- continue to stand out. Maybe you play on a great server that attracts a lot of skilled players, but not everyone does. If you want to get a better sense of how high and mighty you are, transfer your guild to some mediocre server where the demographics of boss kills more closely match the game as a whole.

The scaling buff was put in so that people like you can eventually clear it. Nowhere has Blizzard said that every guild should have killed Arthas by now. There is nothing saying "100% of raiding guilds should have killed Arthas at this point in time". That isn't the case. Cata is still months out and the buff is still scaling to eventually help you get a kill. And if you're 7/12 in ICC, then raiding is very accessible for you. You're raiding. How is it not accessible when you're in there every week clearing more than 50% of the instance?

What point are you trying to make because you're surely not arguing about inaccessibility while admitting that you clear 50%+ of ICC 25 every week. What it seems like you're complaining about is the difficulty of the encounters. So what is it? Do you think you should able to clear every boss the first week they're released because that's an entirely different argument. And let's say that is your argument (which I'm willing to bet it is), how is Cataclysm going to change that? Where did Blizzard say that they're going to make every boss killable by everyone as soon as the instance is released? You're complaining about people making mistakes as if Blizzard can fix that. It seems that you want bosses to be easier across the board so that you can kill them when everyone else does, regardless of how much time or effort you put in. That will NEVER be the case.

It's amazing how many people are arguing that raiding is inaccessible when their argument revolves around their inability to clear the entire instance and how they want BiS loot, both of which have nothing to do with accessibility. :

[Seraphinea]

I absoluty hate the idea.

I think for my guild (and tbh alot of guilds will feel the same about it) it will ruin alot of the social aspect of the game. 25's are for alot of guilds just for the fun and not even for the loot. Missing out on the fun on vent ect. That would be such a shame. Since well, same loot, 15 less people to screw up. Easy choice.