Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Prag]

In that case the guild was BROKEN to begin with.

This is such a key point.

This will break Guilds who are not willing to actually progress and are afraid of wiping repeatedly to new content.

This will do nothing to Guilds that have 25 people willing to put in 100% and do what is necessary to down the boss.

The fact that they're considering letting you bounce between 10 and 25 on the fly is a straight BUFF to the Guilds mentioned first. Sick of watching that stupid fucking Warrior Cleave the Raging Spirit before the Tank has aggro, wiping the Melee Group? DROP IT TO 10 BRO AND DOWN THE BOSS.

Casual guilds get buffed.

Strong 25-man guilds stay the same.

Hardcore 10-guilds emerge.

[hudges]

Lets start with i dont know if i like it or not.
many concern it will be the end of 25 man its a strong possibilty, and ill back ill back it up with some numbers -
*as for number of loot items from what we know till now boss loot table is avrage 12 for for 10 man and 15 for 25
lets presume the loot table will be like 25 boss now, so 15 items per boss, now for 10 man drop of 2 items seems most probable, for 25 not to make loot feel too repatative then needs to be below half so 6-7 items would fit the bill. now for a diffrent data called progress no matter how hard blizz will try 10 man will always will be easier then 25 progress wise, for the simple fact of orgnization, e.g. getting the players getting them to follow strat to the letter and so on, statiscly 25 man are more proun to do mistakes, which makes 25 man progress way slower, so start of a new raid tier it will take aat least twice as long for 25 man to be able to clear it in that time 10 man will be clearing it on a weekly basis, loot wise 10 man will get less potentialy but in fact will get more cause of the faster progress, and more weeks to come 25 man will benfit less and less from the bosses they have on farm due to overlaps, while 10 man will have bigger loot table from clearing all the bosses.
to sum it up loot numbers wont do to keep 25 man going.

[Tetrarchy]

loot IS the game, don't pretend like you dont know it

well its at least part of the game. It quickly became kinda lame to see the 25man pugs in naxx with their 213 compared to our 200. I guess you can call me whatever you want, but since wow is kind of a game about achieving things and progression, if you're a whole tier behind, you eventually feel like you're losing.

just my $.02 tho

[Xelaeno]

Farm-able Legendary in 10 man content? Yes please. Will take longer but who cares? ;D

[Ksmota]

If anything, 10 and 25 man should drop the same exact loot but with the loot from 10 man being a lower ilvl. Nothing wrong with that approach.

[mrwingtipshoes]

Welcome to WoW Casual, the ultimate easy online game.

Don't like it? Quit.

problem solved.

[Wythel]

http://www.wowwiki.com/Blackrock_Spire

and i quote "Upper Blackrock Spire - Intended for 10 party members."

Were you playing the game then ? It was reduced to 10 in an epic nerf patch.

Ask Google


And, it was muuuuuch more fun to play than herodays

[Prag]

So you're saying that the only options are "server first" or "10-man guild." Right?

That's gonna kill the majority of 25-man guilds, exactly like everyone has been saying.

I'm making a comparison.

If you're in a 25-man Guild that "calls it a night" after 2-3 wipes on Sindragosa and doesn't go back until Tuesday reset, yeah, you're probably in for a change.

[troxan]

100% of the memorable rewarding heart racing hard mode kills have always been 25 man ones, 10 man Hard modes have always been a joke in comparison.

Like Sarth+3D, right? :

Intriguing how people try to sound like die-hard hard-core payers without having a single clue...

Wow, the ONE fight that was harder on 10 than 25. Damn, you sure owned him with your single isolated incident!

Haha ;D (I've done both, tho I have to say that the 25 man still felt more epic to down then the 10 one. And yes, before ulduar.)

[Deleted]

For those who say this will "kill" 25-man: Why save something that you have to force people to do? If no one wants to do it, it deserves to die.

ppl go were the loot is if 5 man droped the best gear wouldnt you go for it?
If batlegroudns droped the ebst gear wouldnt you go play solo on them ?

so if 10 man drops same gear that 25 man and you have bether change to get item X if ou go 10 man because less ppl rolling on it wouldnt you preffer to go 10 man? this system screws up guild relationships cause you wont be raiding with your firends that mucth.

[rkma]

This is such a key point.

This will break Guilds who are not willing to actually progress and are afraid of wiping repeatedly to new content.

This will do nothing to Guilds that have 25 people willing to put in 100% and do what is necessary to down the boss.

Like Ensidia, etc. You're forgetting that most of the guilds out there have a skill gradient in their base of players. Some are inherently better than others, and this means that a subset of 10-players will always perform better on their own. The system that Blizzard is proposing will kill or severely damage 99% of these guilds.

The fact that they're considering letting you bounce between 10 and 25 on the fly is a straight BUFF to the Guilds mentioned first. Sick of watching that stupid fucking Warrior Cleave the Raging Spirit before the Tank has aggro, wiping the Melee Group? DROP IT TO 10 BRO AND DOWN THE BOSS.

And kill any 25-man where the content isn't trivially easy. You're making my point for me.

Casual guilds get buffed.

Strong 25-man guilds stay the same.

Hardcore 10-guilds emerge.

And the majority of 25-man guilds will die. Exactly like people have been predicting.

Thank you for making it clear.

[TabascoEU]

If 10 mans are tuned pretty much around the 10 strict guilds now, then I'll be happy. None of them (according to guildox) have downed H LK10. Yea, this is the perfect view to look at it from. Everyone else went into ICC10 with ICC25 gear and roflstomped it. 10 strict guilds I'm guessing find H ICC10 pretty difficult.

I don't think it will be as hard to balance 10 and 25 out. We're not all lootwhores. I don't even raid that much. I see this for what it is. No more retarded 4 raids a week in the same instance, no more incredibly large gear inflation, and hopefully there is less bitching from both sides(10/25 raiders).

You do know that the gear inflation didn't and doesn't have to happen, just because 10mans and 25 mans have different loot levels.

e.g.
comparing 10man normal with 25 man normal

Naxx
200/213
Ulduar
219/226
togc
232/245
ICC
251/264

there was no reason for next tiers 10 mans to go higher than the previous tiers 25 man

It could have easily been
200/213
213/219
219/226
226/232

or similar

with hard modes being 1 step higher.

It would have made hard modes more rewarding feeling as loot would have lasted more than 3 weeks.

Killing hard modes takes effort, just to get most of replaced on the first few easy bosses in the next tier is just sad, and unrewarding.

The only reason loot went out of hand, was because Blizzard wanted it to, they wanted each new instance to be instantly more rewarding than the last. Ulduar hard mode loot hit the bin pretty instantly when totgc came out, same for totgc gear when ICC came out. They didn't have to superscale the iLvl so that the easiest 10man superceded the previous 25man, and the easiest 25 man superceded the previous 25 man hard modes.

[Reverrend]

Atleast fucking time. Thanks blizzard


Now u dont need to get 24 other noobs that dont know what the fuck they are doing to see new bosses


just get 9 friends / guildies and riad

[Odyssasthai]

Don't like it? Quit.

problem solved.

No kidding.

However, since this is hardly the first "WoW will die" change that Blizzard has made, I kind of think they won't leave. Cataclysm will set sales records, just like BC and LK.

[rkma]

I'm making a comparison.

If you're in a 25-man Guild that "calls it a night" after 2-3 wipes on Sindragosa and doesn't go back until Tuesday reset, yeah, you're probably in for a change.

My guild is 4.5 years old and we're top in Horde progression. But we also have players who enjoy 10 mans and form a tight-knit group for achievements. There are many guilds like mine.

None of us think this is a good idea.

[Smoopie]

Don't like it? Quit.

problem solved.

typical america response. If something doesn't go you your way give up, don't ever try to produce thought of change or add ideas to a topic

[Odyssasthai]

ppl go were the loot is if 5 man droped the best gear wouldnt you go for it?
If batlegroudns droped the ebst gear wouldnt you go play solo on them ?

so if 10 man drops same gear that 25 man and you have bether change to get item X if ou go 10 man because less ppl rolling on it wouldnt you preffer to go 10 man? this system screws up guild relationships cause you wont be raiding with your firends that mucth.

Blizzard has said it will be more efficient to get loot in 25-man. Argument over then, right?

[sneaky7]

Also, I disagree a bit about 10-man being the easier route in all cases. Our guild had 2-3 10-mans as a precursor to our 25-man ToC/ICC runs. 2 of them failed miserably because they were bottom heavy with "rank-and-file" types. They are great 25-man players, but didn't have the correct skill set to thrive in 10-man.

The 10-mans in WOTLK are easier than 25-mans. Everybody knows that.
10s indeed ask you for more personal dedication. But if a player kills a boss with a 25-man raid and fails later in 10-man, that doesn't mean he is a "great 25-man player, but doesn't have the correct skill set to thrive in 10-man". It simply means that the rest of the people in his 25-man were good enough to cover his stupidity.
Just for example, my former guild was wiping in Ulduar 25(during t8 times, ofc) on Yogg for some time, and there was the last week before the t9 content would be released (yes, my guild was not good enough to clear the entire instance in a week). In that last week we decided to try 10-man. Most of our people had never done more than 2-3 bosses in 10-man Ulduar before. And you know, we killed Yogg from 1st attempt (if not to count the failed attempt when we forgot to turn on the keepers, ofc).
I don't know how is it going to be in Cataclysm; maybe the difficulty will be ballanced. But in WOTLK 10s are way, way much easier than 25s (with some rare exceptions).

[Odyssasthai]

typical america response. If something doesn't go you your way give up, don't ever try to produce thought of change or add ideas to a topic

Haha, yeah... America is all about giving up and a lack of flexibility.

Wow.

[Smoopie]

Blizzard has said it will be more efficient to get loot in 25-man. Argument over then, right?

Blizzard seems to have a firm grasp of what is going on in their games.

Like paladins and deathknights


and arena