Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Elco]

There is good and bad stuff about this ofc.. I mean you don't need a 25 to do something like and/or if you got problems getting people.. the bad thing is when I did 25 mans with my guild, I liked to do some 10 mans with some of my friends, but that seems fucked with these changes.. Overall I just hope for the best and we see if it will be good

[Quesly]

I can feel that.
Can you feel that?
The feeling of 10 mans getting Legendaries.

ohhh the jedis are going to feel this one

[Deleted]

ohhh the jedis are going to feel this one

I love you.

[Valtiel]

Go back to work! I know who you are.

I was wondering if you was you...

[blackcounter]

the shared lockout is actually the only thing I don't like, because ye...as soon as you done 10 or 25 man you'd get bored to shit because there is nothing else to do.

[Quesly]

I love you.

<33

[grdja]

Eagerly awaiting 5 man and solo raids. As well as 5 man and solo quest legendaries. We all pay same sub, we all have right to see all content.

[Surbmonster]

Worst. Idea. Ever. The problem with this is it only effects like 10% of Blizz's raiding subscribers since nearly every PVE'er is casual now and doesn't have to work hard for ANYTHING. So Blizz could give a flying rats ass about how the rest of us who work hard with 24 other people(with the assurances being very high that there is someone in that group that makes us want to punch a monitor everytime they open their mouth) feel about losing the edge in how much harder we work to get better gear and a more epic feel about a harder fight.

I am posting points that I haven't seen anyone address( I only read about 30 of the 119 pages so if someone mentioned this I appologize):

I am glad someone did the math finally for those of you who apparently failed simple math in school. For there to be a much bigger advantage to 25 mans.. the loot that drops would have to be at least 6-7+ more items for the ratio to be significantly higher than 10 mans. And for those of you arguing that the loot tables will be the same size(20 items we will say) than you have a lower chance to see the one item you want, at least in 10 man, when you see it you have a higher chance of getting it as you don't have 3-4 other people who probably also want it. We don't get the advantage there for 25 mans.

They are removing the 10/25 man achievement differences. You want to do achieves, the game will mark that you did it no matter WHICH difficulty you did it on, removing the "epic feel" of accomplishing it on 25 man cause their wont be a different tier of achievements. So that epic feel of 25 man's for that purpose is now gone.

Also, they are removing badges from the system entirely in lieu of a "points system" and then they are putting a cap on how many you can get per week. Unless they make the cap EXTREMELY high so that you can't possibly reach it by doing EVERY 10 man available(which I also highly doubt because, as this blue post proves as well as nearly everything Blizz has done to ruin raiding for this game, Blizz loves casuals) there will be no point to doing 25 mans for this case either as you will reach the cap by doing 10 mans just as easily as you would busting your ass in a 25 man. So the "MOAR BADGES FOR 25 MAN" argument is ALSO invalid.

The argument that I keep reading about getting more gold is complete nonsense. Any person who is serious enough to run 25 mans in the first place doesn't NEED nor care about that much more gold.. and if you do it's cause you are getting carried and, therefore, are probably excited about this blue post and this doesn't apply to you.

The argument that they are making "10 man's and 25 man's" equally challenging so that the loot that is getting dropped SHOULD be the same quality is also bullshit. I know we don't have an idea how they are making encounters in Cata, but history shows(and this point has been made but I am reiterating it anyway) that ANY encounter in the game so far is MUCH more difficult in 25 man rather than 10 man, positioning being the most obvious of these challenges, AND the most crucial. There is NO fight in the game that is as hard or harder on 10 man than 25, even at the H level. Just isn't.

Also, whomever keeps making the post that 25 man loot whores are facerolling 10 mans and they wont be anymore cause the gear is the same is also just not thinking. Most any 25 man raider(again that isn't being carried) is talented enough to do the 10 man content with the appropriate gear that still makes it challenging. Believe it or not, you exclusive 10 man instance runners and puggers, there IS a reason these people faceroll this stuff you think is hard and it is because they are good at their class and understanding encounter mechanics, NOT solely because they just have better gear than you.

And finally, any of you that think that we will have more raids to raid a week because they "said they would be able to increase how many raids they create" has obviously not been playing this game enough. Blizz devo's will be having a hard enough time actually balancing this shit to double their raid and patch output. So for those of you that think this will at least increase content are probably deluding yourselves. I doubt that the content increase will be put out THAT much more that we wont notice that the instances are harder or we are more bored a week cause we already did the raid. (and who keeps doing ToCx4 for crying out loud? I still see people saying they will be glad they cant do the same instance 4 times a week and using ToC for a comparrison. Really? 4 times with the same toon? Why? If you are doing the 10 and 25 man H content, which you would need to do to do ToC 4 time with ONE toon a week, then why do you still need the loot from the reg 10/25 man instance... this argument that I have seen SEVERAL times makes no sense to me.)

In short, this will more than likely end 25 man raiding. There will be no NOTEWORTHY difference between the 2 instances because there will be nothing that separates them. Not achievements, not gear, not gold, not anything. And for those of you who think that people will still run 25 man instances cause they like 25 man instances? Why do you think we like running with 24 other people that drive us crazy? It probably isn't SOLELY for the social interaction. It's probably for the gear and the challenge. If you remove both of those...(as Blizz said they are doing in these blue posts) why run it anymore?


Also.. that campfire guy that keeps reposting every page to boost his post total: Stop it... its been 119 pages already, and no one thinks that the new guild progression mechanic is going to solve/fix this problem otherwise they would have responded to what you said. We get it, you work for Blizz or otherwise are a sheep being herded by them. Let the rest of us post our own opinions without you responding to everyone with the same answer.

[cerbul]

the shared lockout is actually the only thing I don't like, because ye...as soon as you done 10 or 25 man you'd get bored to shit because there is nothing else to do.

You forget that the 10 mans that we are doing to have fun with firends or doing it with alts, are faceroll while you have 25 ppl gear. It seems to me that you still don't believe that 10 ppl can actualy have the difficulty of the 25 ppl encounters.

There WON'T be 10 ppl faceroll instances anymore, unless you run older content for your alt or something. Just be happy that we get 2x instances at once, so there will be more content to be done by hardcore and casuals can actualy chose to do only one of them.

[Arean]

Warning: small textwall incoming

I personally like the changes. The one thing that I really disliked about WotLK was how 10-man just meant dumbed down, tard version of 25 man. If they manage to balance it right, this change has potential for greatness. I personally always had the most fun in 10 man, but 10 mans atm are just too easy. Also loving that they will release several smaller raids instead of 1 huge 1.

I don't really see how this change is gonna put a stop to 25 man raiding. If 25 gives a good enough upgrade when it comes to how much loot/emblems/gold etc u get per fight, 25 man will live on just like before. What it does put an end to on the other hand is MANDATORY 25-man raiding, and I don't see the downside of having more freedom to choose what u want to play. Sure, the changes can be defined as casual friendly, but there is a difference between casual and bad. The change is absolutely horrible for bad players, because the difficulty of 10-man will increase.

and as a last note: To all the people crying about how Blizzard is ruining the game, and it's time to stop playing, Please show some goddamn respect for the people who created the entire game that u claim to have loved so much in the past. The fact of the matter is that it's their game, and it's a fantastic game, I for one can honestly say that no game has given me as many hours/days/weeks of fun as WoW has, and since it IS their game, they can make the changes they feel are right, and they definitely know better than any single player how their game should be. I was going to say wait until u see the actual changes before letting the tears fall, but on second thought, nobody wants u in the game so please just cancel your subscription this instant.

[Deleted]

I take it heroic shares the same lockout period as normal still? since again its on a per boss basis

[Arean]

I take it heroic shares the same lockout period as normal still? since again its on a per boss basis

Yes, they stated that u can only down any single boss once per week.

[dakalro]

You forget that the 10 mans that we are doing to have fun with firends or doing it with alts, are faceroll while you have 25 ppl gear. It seems to me that you still don't believe that 10 ppl can actualy have the difficulty of the 25 ppl encounters.

There WON'T be 10 ppl faceroll instances anymore, unless you run older content for your alt or something. Just be happy that we get 2x instances at once, so there will be more content to be done by hardcore and casuals can actualy chose to do only one of them.

Then why do I find 10 man HC ICC easy (11/12 HC in alt raid) even on an alt that is not facerolling in 25 man gear, while carrying 1-2 bad dps alts (<8k dps, pvp geared or only around 5k GS). Yeah I have 4 chars doing everything over all of them and knew the fights from a ranged char but I can still handle tanking the place if I know everyone in the group performs perfectly. It's pretty much like LF TotGC 10 5.5k GS when I managed Insanity in a <5k GS geared alt group. You do not need 25 man gear to faceroll 10 mans, you need to play the game.

I feel sorry for the ones that actually think it's the gear that allows good guilds to faceroll 10 mans. They'll have quite the shock when 10 man diff will be the same as 25 man, if Blizzard ever manages to pull that off. They'll have to actually use some time to learn and research fights, and oh no, wipe.

[Quingohtar]

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.

Is Karl Marx in Blizzard staff now?

[Venya]

Look this as Blizzard point of view, more content to grind more it cost for them (server power, electricity etc.), so they limit how much is beneficial to play per day/week as they still get some money as its monthly subscription. And I think questing as alt don’t need nearly as much server power as raids specially 25 man raids.

As me I don’t like playing with alts never liked only thing why I am playing WoW is progress raiding, fight where you have challenge self every time, think what have to be done better etc…., I am on casual guild atm and current content don’t feel nothing first kill don’t feel nothing just oh its death next boss plz….

And balancing 10 and 25 I think on normal it can be done as 25 runs can allow death or two during encounter, but as hard mode no change for it as in hard mode needs flawless playing from 25 players, but 10 men only from 10 players to down boss.
One other thing one of biggest problems is that hard modes can’t be done just tuning from normal modes to hard ones as good hard mode fights need different mechanics to start with or it gets boring and challenge wrong way.

And one thing to remember Blizzards only goal is make money for its owners, these changes should always think also from that point of view.

Profit=subscriptions-(Development + Server + Electricity etc)
aka less as possible content with maximum players

[Ozma]

I hope they make 10-mans as difficult as 25-man instead of dumbing down 25-man. If they pull it off right, it will be an amazing change.

I'm pretty sure a lot of guilds will keep running 25-man anyway. I know mine probably will. But it will be nice to have the option to scale down to a 10-man group of your best players when your 25-man group doesn't have a good setup or people aren't online at raid time (or even if the same 4 or 5 people keep failing and causing wipes on a tough boss).

I'm sure it will cause a LOT of guild drama, but overall I think it's a very positive change.

[Deleted]

LOL @ the QQ, seriously!

To all the people complaining that this will be the death of 25-mans and it’s not appealing anymore: do you seriously raid 25-mans so you can flex your e-peen with better purps? That is pathetic, oh, so pathetic. I thought you raided because it was fun?

As mentioned somewhere between all the waves of QQ - gear should be a tool to reach the goal, not the goal itself. And this change is a damn good step into the right direction to achieve that.

Change is awesome for raiding.
Change is awful for e-peen swinging loot-whores.

Edit: typo

[cerbul]

Then why do I find 10 man HC ICC easy (11/12 HC in alt raid) even on an alt that is not facerolling in 25 man gear, while carrying 1-2 bad dps alts (<8k dps, pvp geared or only around 5k GS). Yeah I have 4 chars doing everything over all of them and knew the fights from a ranged char but I can still handle tanking the place if I know everyone in the group performs perfectly. It's pretty much like LF TotGC 10 5.5k GS when I managed Insanity in a <5k GS geared alt group. You do not need 25 man gear to faceroll 10 mans, you need to play the game.

I totaly agree with you. I strongly believe that the 10 ppl versions are undertuned, even if you try them in ilevel 251 gear. So atm we don't have same difficulty in 10 and in 25 even if you hold on to the adequate gear.

But I was talking about Cata. The plans is simple: Blizz allows you to chose what bosses you want to do on heroic, technically they are removing the "we reached the wall" limit that some players may hit with their guilds. Also, combined with the new "low budget nerf" buffs that already reached 10% in ICC, it will be verry good for guilds progression wise.
They assured with this, that they can keep 10 and 25 ppl normal versions a bit undertuned compared to what we have atm in ICC, but they make sure that the HC progress is done slowly and nicely tuned, offering in the same time the posibility to try other boss if you have problems with one.
This combined with a second isntance with the same gearlevel, it will help guilds not "die" due to lack of progress.
I think is the best plan that I've ever seen.

Only problem to this plan is to find a solution to not let 25 ppl raids die. And I do think will be challenging to find something to keep them up.

[Deleted]

nearly every PVE'er is casual now

Read this and stopped, god I hate idiots.

[Incarnia]

I think it's extremely stupid how PvE gets babied with so much... Let's be communistic and remove the chose for the player and force them into a specific direction.

There are some of us PvEers who LIKE to compete against other guilds and with these changes that will become extremely hard thing to do. Hell progressing guilds will have nothing at all to do except playing alts or hopping around in IF after 1 evening of raiding per week with the gating system.. I assume that the normal modes are going to be complete pushovers as usual.
You see a lot of pugging today and I think the pugging have been rather stable and even during the major part of Wrath so what's the fucking problem?...
Today you are not forced to do ANYTHING as a casual, even the smaller guilds do fine. And we the hardcore are fine with how things are as well, we don't raid ourselves to death (the limited attempts system was complete fail, and introducing it a new way of raiding emerged, alt raiding.. but with no limited attempts, that wont ever happen)...

Why the fucking hell do they need to go and play guinea pig testing all over on us again?

Why not just go out and say, yes we're removing 25m raiding all together because that is the direction this is going. Clear cuts instead of jagged edges please.

It is impossible to create 10m 25m versions of bosses that are the same in difficulty, 25m will always be a bigger hassle when it comes to organizing, space to move around in and it's a lot easier to pick a team out of 10 people to play fantastic than a group of 25. Who the fuck cares about ?x drop of extra loot, badges and some extra gold? That wont make it worth going 25m when 10m is so much easier in so many ways.

It's BS how they go about PvE...
All of wrath have been just one big fucking BETA testing on the PVEers and now knowing that will continue in Cata? WTH, don't we pay for complete products?

The 10m and 25m sharing lockouts is a good idea, but man the rest is just utter shit...

FORCING people to play casual aren't the way to go.

You don't see them force pvpers around gating, lockouts, limited attempts and shit.... Imagine, as a pvper you can ONLY do 10 arena matches a week but you have to chose 2v2, 3v3 or 5v5 because they share the same lockout, and you are only allowed to do 1x each BG a day.


That's how silly PvE have gotten...