Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Psycho2009]

sure because causuals have over 500 posts in a meta gaming forum lol. you dont know what a real casual is, right? also extremely pathetic when you envy people in a videogame and you get off seeing people getting mad.

real casuals will not even know about this change right now.

enjoy spending 4 hours everyday online and feeling like a casual.

OWND ;D ;D

[Ashenray]

Wow, as a full-time raider I don't know about this. Having the same loot drop for both will pretty much destroy 25M Raids, there's not really any point. On the other hand, being part of so many wipes because 5 of the 25 were retards, and now being able to get the same loot and only having 10 ppl to deal with, that is kinda nice too. I guess time will tell, but if this system stays, yes 25 man raids will go the way of the do-do...

[Keosen]

Call it what you want, I unsubbed last night after reading this, nor will I be buying the expansion

Oh noes WoW is dying.
now Blizz instead of getting
11.000.000€ x ~12€ = 132.000.000€ every month
it will now get only 131.999.988€
Poor Blizz.

Run to the bunkers! women and children first!

[Kalx]

Call it what you want, I unsubbed last night after reading this, nor will I be buying the expansion. Tough titty, I guess. I play this game for the challenge of having to work together with 24 other people, not to have to not worry about that with 9 other people. That completely ruins how I like to play the game as far as PvE goes, and since PvP is shit now, there's no point in me playing. Have fun.

bye

[Myrclo]

I so love these changes, now we'll be able to make worthwhile raids consisting of 100% RL friends.

why? couldnt you do it now? or did u had gone to a 25 man raid guild to get gear leaving ur Rl friends behind?
or did your Rl friends left you behind to get loot?

[MauleR]

Teaming up with Activision killed Blizzard. In a rage to get more money they are killing everything interesting in WoW. RIP 25 ppl guild, all hail casuals, notify me when a shop with cosmetic clothing for $$ will open? I'll put another nail in a coffin of WoW which we liked.

[Cruisette]

I still want a good reason as to why they're doing this though? Is it for the casuals? Is it because they don't want to make separate loot tables anymore? I really thought the 10m and 25m being separate was a good thing. I don't see the point in anyone doing 25m and def will miss raiding with 24 other people even if I don't like a few of them or not.

[Eramas]

the QQ is fantastic.

we casuals feed on the tears of pro-gamers, you know that, right?

I am casual and I love the changes!

Your signature includes Gear Score.. BWAVO.

[Arganaut]

Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards

•10 and 25-player (Normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
•10 and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.

Marmite!

[Zamien]

This is so amazing news that I had to create an account to comment!

I am a semi-casual raider with 11/12 in ICC 25 and are currently wiping on LK for the last qouple of weeks. I am raiding typically 3-4 nights a week.

Now we will have a real step between each tier level. Not the I do 25 man TOC to get gear for facerolling 10 man ICC and use the bis from that for ICC 25. I don't have to run ICC 10 every week hoping for the trinket from Lady Deatwhisper when that is everything anybody from the guild needs. We can focus on what we think is most fun! The 25 man guild progress runs!

I have a very hard time understanding why some people complain that there is nothing to do if they can't go over-geared to a 10 man version of the same raid instance? That just sucks. Why are you whining that you will cover all content in one night? As far as I know there is only like 10 guilds in the world that have downed LK25 HC? Are you all representing this guilds? Why would Catalysm hard-modes be easier then that?

I would much more prefer running different raid content different nights then farming the same one in all different flavors.

And why do people complaining about how 10 man guilds would have the same gear? What is the problem? If you are a good player you show that with the achivments not the gear. Being able to down hard bosses early with the same gear as many others that is the way I would prefer to compete. Not by farming meaningless content week after week.

Why would 25 man raids die if that is what people like doing? If people don't like doing it why should Blizzard keep them?

Thanks Blizzard! And I really hope that some of the whiners do quit for I am sick and tired of people afraid of changes.

Only negative about this news is the gateing system. I just don't understand the point of it.

[Crymsin]

Someone miles back said:

25 man = 5 loot
10 = 2 loot

Therefore 5 loot vs 4 loot and 25 man is more efficient

25/5 = 5
10/2 = 5

= why bother with 25 man at all? its not more efficient


This will spell the end of the game for me.

Wow has been fun, wow has been a huge part of our lives and given me many great memories and times. But if they put through these changes, i and near enough my enitre guild have agreed, we'll be migrating to a new game.

Best of luck with cataclysm Blizzard. I hope you realise that appeasing casuals wasn't the only way to make money

Consider that if a progression guild is running 10 mans only, they're probably running 3 10 mans... 5 alts needed but most of those guilds have good alts. That would mean 6 drops per boss technically for a 10 man. I can see the ratio of badges be different but those only have value starting out.

[Blaugrana1899]

This is so amazing news that I had to create an account to comment!

I am a semi-casual raider with 11/12 in ICC 25 and are currently wiping on LK for the last qouple of weeks. I am raiding typically 3-4 nights a week.

Now we will have a real step between each tier level. Not the I do 25 man TOC to get gear for facerolling 10 man ICC and use the bis from that for ICC 25. I don't have to run ICC 10 every week hoping for the trinket from Lady Deatwhisper when that is everything anybody from the guild needs. We can focus on what we think is most fun! The 25 man guild progress runs!

I have a very hard time understanding why some people complain that there is nothing to do if they can't go over-geared to a 10 man version of the same raid instance? That just sucks. Why are you whining that you will cover all content in one night? As far as I know there is only like 10 guilds in the world that have downed LK25 HC? Are you all representing this guilds? Why would Catalysm hard-modes be easier then that?

I would much more prefer running different raid content different nights then farming the same one in all different flavors.

And why do people complaining about how 10 man guilds would have the same gear? What is the problem? If you are a good player you show that with the achivments not the gear. Being able to down hard bosses early with the same gear as many others that is the way I would prefer to compete. Not by farming meaningless content week after week.

Why would 25 man raids die if that is what people like doing? If people don't like doing it why should Blizzard keep them?

Thanks Blizzard! And I really hope that some of the whiners do quit for I am sick and tired of people afraid of changes.

Only negative about this news is the gateing system. I just don't understand the point of it.

you should have created that account a long time ago... this forum really needs more reasonable people like you. i totally agree.

[maisywow]

This is a Guild Killer! Thanks alot blizzard! We work so hard to maintain a great core group for our 25man raids but now I can see people not wanting to bother to keep trying...they would rather just break away and do it on 10man mode for same loot! It's alot easier to control and trust a 10man group than a 25 man raid so why would people bother to continue to work so hard for 25man loot if they can get same stuff in 10man raid? I know our tight-nit core 10man group within our guild that has run for 2 years now is something we look forward to each week. It is lot of fun and more relaxing than tryin to keep an eye on 25 people and opening up the Heroic mode and getting some nice gear has been so much fun! But the real sense of accomplishment comes from downing these bosses as a 25man group? It will be hard to raid as 25man group if people just say "screw this, i'll do 10man and get the same loot!"

So I pay Blizzard every month and trust that they are putting the money into great design such as they have done with Icecrown citadel's 10 and 25 raids with the variety in regular mode and heroic modes. So now blizzard is gonna "cheap out" and not have to put as many resources into designing different loot and setting up the mechanics for both sets of raids! All I see here is Blizzard cut backs and an end to our 25 man raids and possibly our great guild!


This is nothing more than Blizzard "cheaping out" on us but charging us the same amount to play each month than before and at first I thought it was another one of their "April Fools Day" jokes!

[grdja]

You know, this might create some problems with "/w me GS and Achi" PUGs. They do use previous tier 25m badge tear and daily farmed frost to overgear stuff enough to allows their terribleness to be compensated.
With 10m and 25m gear being same, and possible limit on how much current tier gear can you farm, that will be impossible.

But Blizz cares. Gating will allow you to gear up by repeating one or two bosses for weeks before next wing opens. And making 25m as easy as 10m.
Even without previous tier 25m 10 is still easier. Example, compare Marowgarr 25 and Marowgarr 10, 1 vs 3 bone spikes meaning that it is more likely to have important people frozen in 25m, while in 10 its usually just one dps.
Yes yes, Sarth 3D 10 man was harder than 25 man. And I'm talking strictly about normal modes.
There is a large amount of people willing to raid, have too much brain to be counted in "casuals", and are still not willing to give effort needed to run Hard modes.
And the preposterous "you can start raiding in greens" concept will make first Cata tier both 25 and 10 man absolute facerols for people in L85 5man HC 5man epics.

[Mankins]

Great , blizzard has outdone them selves in getting people into guilds and going 25 man raids. Now they seem to try hard to get rid of guilds all together.
What is the use of a guild if you can clear a 10 man in 2 nights and then bugger of till reset.

This game is becoming more and more casual. I don;t mind casual but there has to be a balance. And with this change blizz is tipping the scale towards casual big time

Manny

[Biggame]

I have been playing wow since Vanilla, first as a 40 man raider and now as a 25 man raider. I just went through the death of a guild that for 4 years was the #1 guild on the server as recruitment on 25 mans is very hard. It currently is too easy for people to get loot in average guilds so unless you are super guilds, recruitment is painful. The guild I joined is having problems recruiting as well. No one wants to leave their easy loot smaller guilds for a chance at more progression. I seriously doubt many 25 man raid guilds will survive this. Instead, they will shrink to a core of their 10 to 15 best players and go on as that. Yes, this will make it easier for the lower end masses to get the "same" loot but the top end is going to shrivel up and die.

Gone are the days that you could stand in IF or ORG just with your tier gear and people know who the raiders are. Everyone will look alike and the only distinction will be the people that pay for extra loot like tcg and the store items.

I also am an achievement nerd. Given this scenario, when will I be able to get achievements for both 10 and 25 mans?

[cerbul]

You know, this might create some problems with "/w me GS and Achi" PUGs. They do use previous tier 25m badge tear and daily farmed frost to overgear stuff enough to allows their terribleness to be compensated.
With 10m and 25m gear being same, and possible limit on how much current tier gear can you farm, that will be impossible.

But Blizz cares. Gating will allow you to gear up by repeating one or two bosses for weeks before next wing opens. And making 25m as easy as 10m.
Even without previous tier 25m 10 is still easier. Example, compare Marowgarr 25 and Marowgarr 10, 1 vs 3 bone spikes meaning that it is more likely to have important people frozen in 25m, while in 10 its usually just one dps.
Yes yes, Sarth 3D 10 man was harder than 25 man. And I'm talking strictly about normal modes.
There is a large amount of people willing to raid, have too much brain to be counted in "casuals", and are still not willing to give effort needed to run Hard modes.
And the preposterous "you can start raiding in greens" concept will make first Cata tier both 25 and 10 man absolute facerols for people in L85 5man HC 5man epics.

seriously.. do you want us to farm bgs for gear to be able to take part in the first raiding instance? .. there should be a link between all steps, aquireable by sticking to one of the pvp or pve aspect of the game. Only difference atm is that you need a weapon in pvp that most of the ppl can't get it from pvp, and are forced to come to pve to get it.

[SilverLynx]

As a strict 10 man raider all I can say is "YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAY...~!~~!!!!!"

To all the butthurt, nerdraging, doomsaying crybabies...you said the exact same thing about there even BEING a 10 man version of every raid ("but BAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, then why will anyone do the 25 man version!?!")

They said they'd bump the rewards for the 25 man so people can cry less.

Right now on 10 man, you get two drops, and on 25 man, you get three, a token, a recipe and an orb. If they increase the drops to 5, maybe even 6, it's now faster to gear up via 25 mans. They can also limit the chance of the token/recipe/orb drop on 10 man to be less often, instead of always.

And to the people who don't understand the reasoning of "but why would you just want to raid with people you know?" Being able to call them, or just go over to their house to play, being able to trust your raid leader not to be out for himself, and people using their anonymity to be abusive...is a superior way to raid. As someone who has raided for 5 years, the last year of it has been one of the best experiences for me.

If we had 25 people who all played WoW who functioned with our schedule, who were good friends with the rest of us (but who really has 25 super-close friends who are all great gamers? If you do, holy crap...why aren't you raiding with them?), it might be worth considering, but right now that doesn't suit us. (Note: we're basically 5 couples with a few perefrial friends thrown in. When you can call the raid on their cellphones without being "that creepy wow person" and have a conversation beyond "why the hell aren't you online" - that's superior!)

To be massively penalized (like we are right now) by being in a tier of gear below of what was used to test, by never getting orbs, recipes and tokens, a strict 10 man guild is actually harder than a 25 man. Last time I attended a 25 man raid I blew their "top tier players" right out of the water.

[RumlyD]

And the preposterous "you can start raiding in greens" concept will make first Cata tier both 25 and 10 man absolute facerols for people in L85 5man HC 5man epics.

Actually they said that you'll need to get some dungeon blues and some crafted items beforehand afaik.

In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.

[Daedalon]

I still want a good reason as to why they're doing this though? Is it for the casuals? Is it because they don't want to make separate loot tables anymore? I really thought the 10m and 25m being separate was a good thing. I don't see the point in anyone doing 25m and def will miss raiding with 24 other people even if I don't like a few of them or not.

Maybe they are doing it to balance out the difficulty level versus rewards ?

PPL in 25 man gear doing 10 mans gaining the same items as ppl that are doing it in only 10 man gear... Still the difficulty in 25 man gear is none existant compared to doing the same fights in only 10 man gear. This system breaks all rules of basic RPG loot versus difficulty. Something that the entire raiding progress in WOW has always been focused on.

Now ppl can choose if they want to do it with 9 others - or 24 others. Same rewards (more loot per person in 25 mans) - Simulare difficulty level. Thats a true RPG system.

The current system is flawed big time. Something had to be done.