Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Zellandine]

It astounds me the preconceived notions that people have in regards to raiding. As someone who has done hardcore 25-man raiding, and someone who has done only 10-man raiding, I welcome this change whole heartedly. 25-man raiders do not deserve better gear because they managed to find another fifteen people to attend their raid. The difficulty level between 10-man content and 25-man is essentially just people. In 25-mans, you might find an additional mechanic during a boss fight, but the biggest difference is typically the amount of health the boss has. They will usually do more damage, as well, to make up for the fact that they assume that 25-man raiders will have better gear then 10-man raiders.

I want you to think about that for a moment. The only reason 25-man content is harder is because it's artificially harder due to the additional number of moronic people you might be bringing with you. It's harder because there are more people to screw you over. How is this fun? How is this exciting? 10-man raiding right now is given no respect due to the fact that 25-man raiders can come in and just roll it as soon as it's out due to their gear level. 10-man instances were never made to be difficult for people who out-gear them. 10-man content shouldn't be viewed as a training ground for 25-man content, or to get a few easy pieces to make up for what you don't have to make 25-man content easier. This lessens greatly the accomplishment of a 10-man who is a close-knit group of friends who work well together and can accomplish things without having to spend hours upon hours in a 25-man instance.

So, at this point, "hardcore" raiders are complaining because they're no longer given the prestige of managing to find fifteen additional players who will, at some point, cause wipes for them. They're complaining because now 10-man raiding means something. It doesn't take away from you. If anything, it promotes your style of play. An environment where every single player in the raid has far more impact on what's actually happening, rather than having the ability for several people to go afk, screw up or DC and you still accomplish your goal. If anything, this promotes competent, progressive raiding. We have more time for learning and dominating content rather than sitting around scrounging for players. I understand that the progression-minded, world first raids already have the players they need, but Blizzard doesn't build content expressly for those people.

Shame on you.

[Reixy]

Silly bitch is silly, 25m's= DOUBLE TO TRIPLE the amount of loot, badges, GOLD IN 10m's. 25m's aren't dead unless shit heads like you ran the raiding community en masse.

Silly troll is silly.
And DOUBLE the people competing for loot.

And there is no way they will "balence" 10 and 25, it will always be easier to control 10 people then 25, always be easier to find 10 good players than 25, always be more room to spread out(BQL) etc etc.

[bbr]

This is just... silly imo.
Means people will have less content to play with.

25 man raiders who normally do 10 mans for extra badges, will get bored real quickly, or split off into 10 man guilds, and later on quit.

Bad, Bad move by blizzard.

[Wadadux]

This. And raid comps are so much easier to cheese in 10 mans, so i think 10 mans will be by far easier in the end and there is absolutely no reason to do 25 mans. I'll miss you serious raiding :'(

Who says 10 mans will not be serious in Cataclysm? If Blizzard does what they say they're going to do, then it will be as serious as the 25 man version. Cheese the raid comp? With 10 players/classes to choose from there's really not much room to have variety when you seriously min/max your tanks, healers, melee dps, ranged dps, and have a solid balance of buffs possible. With 25 man it's much easier to cheese imo. Yes, I have raided both 25 and 10 man and this is my opinion so sue me.

[Downwithopp]

How about linking your heroic 10 man LK kill for us.

How about linking your normal mode LK kill for us?

[splorch]

I dont like this in the least, I do 25 mans in the guild where we bring all our members and give Fester all our gold, and then i run in our main group to roll 10 man. What this is telling me is we now have the choice between running with the best 10 people in the guild ... or everyone else

The only result i see in this is now i can raid on all 4(5 in cat) of my toons get equal gear and all the alts of our top raiders will raid for all our alts rather than our lesser members ever seeing raid content. Great for me bad for 15 other people.

And yes i raid all 4 of my toons through 10 mans every week. 3 guild 1 pug, yes i have no life, but i enjoy it.

[Nexus2089]

Just when you thought gear couldn't become more available

[rumbling]

A sad day. I will miss alot of people, but thanks for the heads up - i can pretty much quit wow now. 10 mans aint fun and it will not be possible to keep a 25-man guild going. I did enjoy this game, but without raiding i dont see the point anymore.

[Dakon]

Thats the most stupid idea from loooong time.

It will kill all 25 man raiding, since it easier to carry 9 men with with instead of 24 :O

GJ Blizzard.

[Shammywan]

Main does 25 man with the guild 3 times a week, alt does a 10 man alt run with better players from the guild once a week;

ow lol my alt is better geared than my main lol!

[Aerna]

Sad change, even if i'm in a R25 guild, i enjoy playing R10, either in pugs or with guild. Now i will be forced to choose between the 2.

Can't they just let ppl play the game how they want to?

[TheSenator]

LoL 25 mans are dead!

[sithorion]

okej: think about it this way:

let's say people raid ICC 4days in a week now, both 10 as 25. Now you got 2 kinds of raids with the same difficulty..

you raid instance 1 2days, and instance 2 2days in a week. That means you will be doing the same amount of raiding, and you can even vary per week if you're going to do 10 or 25.

Yay, I love me 10man guild suddenly.

have to make the instances a lot harder then

[Cilraaz]

I see a lot of people missing two very important quotes:

25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people

25-man will drop more loot per player. So if 10-man drops 2 pieces of loot (1 per 5 players), then 25-man would drop something like 6 pieces of loot (1.2 per 5 players). The same would go for badges and gold.

The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind

I've seen people quote mechanics of Lich King and (god only knows why) Thaddius in this thread. No current content is relevant as the content wasn't designed for 10/25 to drop the same loot. Current content was designed around 25-man dropping better loot.

In summary: Pull your heads out of your asses and read.

[fenixblade]

This is great news in my opinion.

Less gear inflation.
No need to raid more than a couple nights per week.

Some people like raiding more than a couple nights a week.

What's the new model going to be? Complete 'X' raids in two nights in 10m, and wait a week (lockout) to play WoW again?
Sounds boring to me.

[Fonzey]

This thread so far

- 25man raiders display their disgust at these changes. Now there's no 10man raids on off-days unless you all have alts in the same content tier.
- 10man raiders display their IQ saying 25man raiders (who do the harder, fast paced content) are just lootwhores and they clearly deserve top ilvl loot for no actual reason.
- Clearly, 10man raiders enjoy 10mans because they have 9 friends and loot doesn't play a part at all (just want to experience content brah!!) but they need the same loot as 25man raiders even though it doesn't matter to them.
- Strict 10man guilds love this change because now, even though 25man guilds having higher ilvl loot impacts in no way, shape or form on their own raiding schedule, they now get the same loot as 25mans. Makes sense right?

I think that's a little harsh, and not quite accurate.

I'm the third bullet-point on your list, but currently my only reason to not be happy is because any 'achievement' I get in WoW is overshadowed by 25man raiders, who I feel get to obtain the same with less effort (Kingslayer with 251/264 gear rather than 245/251 gear for example). I still enjoy the game, and I love the challenges that 10man raiding gives me - but there is a severe lack of respect from the ignorance carried by many 25man raiders that we just want a higher gearscore. That's really not the case, I just want the chance to compete - without sacrificing the social upsides of 10man raiding.

I do however have muchos sympathy for 25man raiders, these changes are bad for you guys no-matter which way you look at it - but perhaps that's Blizzards intention, they don't want to support you anymore, and they feel they can offer more to the playerbase by concentrating on smaller raids

[masterkiller]

It is MUCH harder to run a 25man guild then a 10 man guild. Not only that but it will be MUCH harder to recruit for 25s at this point. GOOD BYE 25MAN RAIDING!!

Possibly the worst change for a 25man guild leader ever.

[kailtas]

As long as 25 man drop 250% loot i have no problems with this, its actually gonna make more 10 man guilds which is allot better if u ask me. Better community etc and no forcing to go both or make a 25 man for loot.

But what bothers me is that blizzard is changing the raid setup every single expansion. Blizzard need to stop this shit. Every single expansion they change stuff. They demanded guilds let go off ca 15 members from vanilla to TBC because blizzard wanted to lower the required players. Then they allow players to choose which is good but still a way to cause drama in guilds. And now they want to make people being able to choose what they truly want and not want because of loot.

All these changes where with good intentions but blizzard screwed up for allot of people over the years.

[trilog]

Twins in Vanilla
Quit for the original Naxx, not the one you wiped in at level 80.

Server first Illidan, Archimonde, Vashj and Kael. Server second Kil'Jaeden (pre nerf, not that you would know who he is either)

Rank 13 Hunter.

Cleared everything in Wrath before it was nerfed.

Keep trying you shitty, you and your "10 man guild" are terrible.

Now call me a nerd for accomplishing all of the above playing 15-20 hours a week tops.

right when you can actually prove to me (I'll roll on your server if you like) you did any of these and not just watch Nihilum videos thinking you were there, I'll believe you.

you are not a good troll. try harder. and you sound very, very mad. in fact I'll ask you the million dollar question: umad?

PS: love how you didn't address my Cataclysm point at all. if you're going to troll you have to at least address everything. otherwise, you're not good. sorry but you can't troll a troll ;D

[Foxhoundn]

this topic is for sure going to beat Celestial steeds one