Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[videotape]

Seriously, stop talking about things you don't know about. 25man hardcore Heroic raiding is not an easy carry fest.

What thread are you reading? You win -5 Internets for this off-topic post.

If I understand you correctly, and I think I do, your primary motivation for raiding in WoW is to be able to flex your e-peen that nobody really cares about. Cool story. I bought the star-shitting ponybird so that I could flaunt my IRL disposable income in-game (and to passively troll people who rage over its existence), so I say Blizzard should start selling more epic trollbait for real money. If they don't, it's because they hate me and my ilk. I mean obviously.

Back when I actually had the time to raid high-end content 6 nights per week, there was no "recognition" beyond getting some loot that was exceptionally hard for players to get. Besides that, the real fulfillment came not from flashing my shiny purples in a vain attempt to dig up some semblance of actual respect from anonymous children in a meaningless online game, but it came from actually completing difficult encounters after days, weeks, months of effort. This is not changing at all.

There is absolutely no motivation to run 25s in Cataclysm, unless of course you consider the fact that you will be gearing your guild faster in 25s than you will in 10s. Or do you only read selectively? Whatever you can skim off the top that provides sufficient reason to post some shitty, condescending, ignorant post on an Internet forum, I guess? Faster gearing translates to faster heroic progression. Also consider that people raid 25s because they like to. Someone's opinion of what makes a raid fun is not going to suddenly change simply due to an item equivalence adjustment. Maybe for a douchebag like you, but not for most normal people in this world. The point is that 10- or 25- should be a matter of choice, not a matter of "are we 1337 enough?" Some will disagree with this perspective, but the change indicates that most people agree with it - casuals and hardcore players alike.

The citation of HC LK 25 / 10 differences is completely irrelevant. ICC is not a Cataclysm raid and was not built with these design changes in mind.

[Dimka23]

Wow... Raid on Tuesday Rest of the week APB 8)

[Thass]

i Pay-To-Play this shit. if i want to raid a shitload i will. limiting the lockouts is dumb as fuck and there should be a difference in loot. casuals - go back to naxx... maybe read tactics first, with this new badges shit i doubt you ever seen it.

[fenixblade]

"10-Man and 25-Man raids will share the same lockout"

HAHAHAHA I'm glad I quit !

yet you still post here? get a life.

[Dedweight]

• Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements
  Cataclysm will change a couple of things to the raiding system apparently. "Too long didn't read" version:
  
  

  • 10-Man and 25-Man raids will share the same lockout.

  
  While I do like some of the changes this one in particular doesn't sit well with me, using my own guild as an example we are trying to build up to 25man content but having issues getting people to show up for more than 1-2 days out of our three day raid schedule so we always end up short to continue our 25man raids and our GM and Officers are very reluctant when it comes to PuGing guild raids. If this continues in Cataclysm this change will screw us over for the week. Even if you the lockout is shared much like the 25man and 25HC is currently between 10 and 25man raids a significant number of our raiders would be fucked over.
  
  In event you can't switch your 25man lockout to 10man to compensate for lack of members one night you could have a scenario where you have 25 raiders show up the first night so you raid a 25man, second night only 15 raiders show up and since you don't have the other 10 to fill the raid you can't do a 25man which currently isn't a huge issue because you could roll into 10man and kill bosses but come Cata you're already locked to 25man so no raiding that night. Third night comes and you still only manage to get 15 members to log in.
  
  Needless to say I sure as hell hope we can convert a 25mn lockout to a 10man lockout and back again.

[Vengeblade]

Everyone saying "25-mans are just 10 smart people and 15 people being carried" have obviously never been in a 25man raid for anything farther than maybe Normal Festergut. If just one DPS fucks up early on Heroic Blood Queen Lana'thel, you won't meet the enrage. If one healer slips during the last 30% of Heroic Deathbringer Saurfang, a mark dies and it's a wipe. If one caster fails at getting out of the raid for his stacking debuff aoe in Heroic Sindragosa, it's a wipe. If one spore'd player is an idiot on Heroic Festergut, there won't be enough stacks and it's a wipe. If one ranged gets too close to the melee on Heroic Rotface, the melee will get the vomit debuff and it's a wipe.

Yeah, we get it, heroic mode is hard in ICC, I think that's been on enough threads, we understand. Still not the point of the coming changes. Stay with teh subject and try not to appeal to emotion, especially since nothing has been tested by the general public yet.

Seriously, stop talking about things you don't know about. 25man hardcore Heroic raiding is not an easy carry fest. It requires attention, communication, and skill from each person in the raid, and each person is just as liable as the next to screw everything up. This is what 25man raiders like. They like that things can't be walked over and they like that 25 players have to play in unison. They like the endless wiping until they finally get it down. They like the effort and the trial. And most importantly, they like the recognition for going through all that. These things naturally make 25-man more difficult than 10-man. It will always be more easy to handle Defiles on Lich King in 10-man than it is to handle Defiles in 25-man. Doing it right in 25-man is what deserves a reward.

Once again, not relevant. Comparing WotLK to Cata when Blizzard has stated that most of what we know is changing simply proves fear of change and not rational objection.

They said they would be tuning 10 and 25 man closer in difficulty. Yes 10 mans are easier to get good people in than 25 mans. However, since they are still working on the raids for Cata, I'm sure they are working on these issues.

Things they could do to create balance between 10 and 25:
-10 mans have less players to mess up, so the mechanics need to be tougher is all.
a. Increase boss health by 10% than the WotLK model. 10 man bosses would be harder to kill and enrage timers would be meaningful still.
b. Decrease spell cast times on bosses, requiring faster reaction.
c. Make fire/void zones/ etc. larger on 10 man, placing importance on position in 10s.
-25s really don't need much tuning, honestly, as the challenge is getting 10s to be as hard as 25s.

What is recognition and reward? A nice 310% mount. Oh, wait 310% will be given to everyone in Cataclysm, I guess we'll just get a special model that does nothing else. How about some nice tier gear that no one else will have? Oh, wait, oh no, tier gear has been free loot since Naxx, but here as a consolation prize you'll get different colored tier gear. Well, at least I have this awesome axe I can only get out of 25-player --OH NO!-- never mind. Guess you'll have to settle for a title that no one will ever see if they play with their camera zoomed out, like 99% of WoW players.

People get upgrades all the time, especially in new expansions, deal with it. Getting new loot, regardless of item color, is always fun when it improves your character. The base point of RPGs is to be stronger and get upgrades constantly, if we didn't get new stuff, we'd stop playing and there are many of us who like upgrading regardless of how hardcore or not we are.

Final Fantasy is one of my favorites series, however, once you beat the game and get everything, that's it, nothing more to accomplish. I get the best gear and the highest level and all the little secrets and that's it. Blizzard not only provides way for everyone to upgrade, they also provide so much content at times, it feels like you're never done, which adds to the mystery of the world, even when you know all about it.

People will get what you EARNED the right have before most could get it, and while we are off trying to earn cash for 310% speed flying, you will before doing something harder in the game, see it all works out.

Getting the same reward in 25m Heroic raiding as you would get in 10m Heroic raiding is a slap in the face and quite honestly an insult to everyone who has put forth the time and dedication of hardcore 25m raiding this expansion. There is no reason to do 25-mans in Cataclysm. Badges become obsolete after about the second month of that tier. 25mans and 25man guilds will be dead.

You know badges will be obsolete in 2 months after Cata?!?!?!?! If you know this, then you must have quite the insight into the expansion.

The badges are clunky right now, yes, but hardly obsolete. I find tons of uses for my badges, gear for alts, BoAs to level them up, gems for use or profit. Obsolete is hardly the proper term.

Lastly, this is not a slap in the face. The article stated they will be returning 10s and 25s to be as tough as each other, things like OS+3 10 man proved it possible to make it hard enough. They will also drop more gear/badges/money. With shared lockouts, you will earn more by doing 25s then 10s, but it helps other people with the skill and ability but less time or other restrictions.

You've only gotten a taste are have blown it into a full emotional assault by blizzard against its fans. While I understand people being upset, this is just getting out of hand.

[fenixblade]

i Pay-To-Play this shit. if i want to raid a shitload i will. limiting the lockouts is dumb as fuck and there should be a difference in loot. casuals - go back to naxx... maybe read tactics first, with this new badges shit i doubt you ever seen it.

you pay to play the services blizzard provides... it's your choice whether you pay, it's blizzard's choice what services to provide.

if you're "paying for shit", you should probably think about why you're spending your money.

[soradakey]

Without proper feedback the company would die. If everyone just quit when something happened they didn't like instead of voicing their opinion then eventualy nobody would be playing. Blizzard, just like any other company, makes these changes because they believe it will make them more money by drawing in more people and keeping existing members. Obviously they are not always succesful.

It saddens me that no matter what they say unless it's a major buff to your class the majority of you bitch and whine like the world is about to fucking end.
Examples (if you've browsed this site for a minute and a half you've probably read it before):
-Oh no not the bads, god forbid if there are people under my skill level who might join the same pug as I'm in and destroy my entire evening because I can't be arsed to either tell them how to do things properly or spend more than a fraction of a second finding a group only to whine at them for being n00bs once I get saved to the instance.
-I hate gearscore but yours is too low so gtfo.
-Boo hoo content is too hard/easy and Blizz is an evil corporation that only wants money as opposed to any other company out there THIS IS NOT WHAT I SIGNED UP FOR IN VANILLA (which is the only thing that matters ever).

If you don't like a product stop using it. How can it be harder than that?

[Patty]

sounds like a balancing nightmare, but if they pull it off then its all good

This is exactly what I was thinking.. But hey! Let's hope for the best!

[Deleted]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNeMIfyGfmo

[RollTide]

The only question I have. When balancing the two, will 10m as we know it be much harder, or will they dumb down the 25's as we know it?

If they make it so 25's are still what they are and make 10m's much more on par with them, I think it will be fine.

[sneaky7]

Things they could do to create balance between 10 and 25:
-10 mans have less players to mess up, so the mechanics need to be tougher is all.
a. Increase boss health by 10% than the WotLK model. 10 man bosses would be harder to kill and enrage timers would be meaningful still.
b. Decrease spell cast times on bosses, requiring faster reaction.
c. Make fire/void zones/ etc. larger on 10 man, placing importance on position in 10s.
-25s really don't need much tuning, honestly, as the challenge is getting 10s to be as hard as 25s.

This would make them "equally hard", but still in different way... In 25 people would need more organization and teamwork, and in 10 each person would have to be more skilled personally.

[rkma]

Disaster

[FireBorne]

Doesn't this mean that there will be less loot overall.

[BetrayedOf52]

Im very happy. Me and my real life friends where planning to make a guild and now we can make 10 man core? thats awesome going to be a good time.As for people saying " making 25 man pointless or lame" HOW about making 10man NOT POINTLESS OR LAME kkthnx.

[Astarion45]

People should just wake up and smell the coffee. There's other stuff to be doing then WoW. OMG I can't raid for 50 hours this week. Go get a job or go to school...get some sun, I dunno. If your that bored that you have to raid X amount of hours a week cuz ur that big of a loser, I feel sooooo bad for you.

It's a game, not your life!

[justandulas]

gentleman, gentleman! this could very well lead to the end of the world......... of warcraft!

[Jathro]

Just give separate 10-mans and 25-mans, like on 70 level...

Yep, this.

[Tang]

I don't understand the responses that say "10 man better become as tough as 25 man!"
The only reason that 10 man content ever seems "too easy" right now is because people use 25 man gear to clear 10 man content where the numbers have been tweaked assuming 10 man gear.

If gear is the same, then it's simply a matter of tweaking all the numbers up 5-10%. In terms of coordination or effort, I find that 10 man is often more difficult than 25 man, because there's less room for duplication of roles. If your replenishment guy or CC guy or whatever dies/gets DC'd, that could be automatic failure, whereas in 25 man you can usually pick up the slack a little bit.

The only thing that's truly easier about 10 man content in an absolute sense is that it's easier to find 10 people who don't suck and can be on at the same time than to find 25 who don't suck and can be on.

[sneaky7]

HOW about making 10man NOT POINTLESS OR LAME kkthnx.

10-man could be deleted from game for good, to be honest.
Or at least indeed be separate instances.