Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Blaugrana1899]

i don't understand why people nerdrage so much... if the 25 man raid format is really that good, there will still be enough people who'll play it. you won't be having any problems to fill your 25 man raids, just as you have until now. some will raid with 25, others with 10 people. no big deal.

if not, and the 25 man raids really die because of these changes... well, that will mean that the 25 man raid format just isn't really that popular (=fun). why should blizzard hold on to a raid format nobody really likes? why should blizzard keep rewarding the minority of people who really like that format?

also, no one has seen the big picture yet. it's really too soon to jump to conclusions and start cancelling subscriptions (allthough you're free to do so... in fact, i'd quite like to see less nerdraging crazy people in the game, that would really enhance my gaming experience).

[Cruisette]

Maybe they are doing it to balance out the difficulty level versus rewards ?

PPL in 25 man gear doing 10 mans gaining the same items as ppl that are doing it in only 10 man gear... Still the difficulty in 25 man gear is none existant compared to doing the same fights in only 10 man gear. This system breaks all rules of basic RPG loot versus difficulty. Something that the entire raiding progress in WOW has always been focused on.

Now ppl can choose if they want to do it with 9 others - or 24 others. Same rewards (more loot per person in 25 mans) - Simulare difficulty level. Thats a true RPG system.

The current system is flawed big time. Something had to be done.

Doing something with 25 people is much more difficult than doing it with someone in 10m gear. There is so much that could go wrong in a 25m. And, last I looked this was an MMO, not an RPG. >.>

I don't see the system now as being 'broke' or 'flawed' really. You know who raids and who kind of doesn't right now. I've been in a 25m successfully since the start of BC and have cleared everything besides 10m Algalon up to this point. I've enjoyed being with 24 other people. Seeing it go down to 9 is a bit bothersome. I don't really enjoy 10m at all because of it being so small.

[Ren66]

Really I doubt it is going to kill 25 raiding. IF blizz actually makes 10mans HARD and on par with 25 raids all these casuals thinking "yay" I get to spend less time to raid to get gear..wont happen if you have 10 casuals vs 25 hardcore I'm sure the 25 raid is going to progress further and get more done then the 10 casuals. Also most hardcore like myself and many others are more into 25 raiding over 10man so the hardcore community is probably going to keep doing 25s while all the casuals go do their 10s.

Now don't get me wrong i am not saying casuals are bad I actually know a few good ones but the majority of them are. Though i'm not saying we won't see casual 25 guilds or 10 hardcore but we are not going to see 25s die. Myself I LOVE 25s and hate 10s so I wouldn't even go over if 10s were easier.
I think this is going to make guild raiding more popular tbh and be a PuG killer I hope.

As for gear being less valuable I doubt it. Heroic loot is still going to be where its at and as I said before casual 10s probably won't see heroic or at least not any time soon.

[TabascoEU]

Maybe they are doing it to balance out the difficulty level versus rewards ?

PPL in 25 man gear doing 10 mans gaining the same items as ppl that are doing it in only 10 man gear... Still the difficulty in 25 man gear is none existant compared to doing the same fights in only 10 man gear. This system breaks all rules of basic RPG loot versus difficulty. Something that the entire raiding progress in WOW has always been focused on.

Now ppl can choose if they want to do it with 9 others - or 24 others. Same rewards (more loot per person in 25 mans) - Simulare difficulty level. Thats a true RPG system.

The current system is flawed big time. Something had to be done.

Yep your right, remove 10 mans this is a MMORPG, not raiding for you plus a few friends. Raid groups just shouldn't be that small.

[Deleted]

The same loots for 10/25 is fine.

But why take away the freedom to do both a 10-man and a 25-man the same week?
As a casual guild we learn the fights in 10 and then can do them in 25.
The shared lockout won't help us at all.

[TabascoEU]

I would have less issues with this if 10s were changed to 15, suddenly boss effects like Mind controls etc. can happen the same as 25 man, you can have a broader class/spec mix, but it is still smaller.

[SilverLynx]

You know, this might create some problems with "/w me GS and Achi" PUGs. They do use previous tier 25m badge tear and daily farmed frost to overgear stuff enough to allows their terribleness to be compensated.
With 10m and 25m gear being same, and possible limit on how much current tier gear can you farm, that will be impossible.

But Blizz cares. Gating will allow you to gear up by repeating one or two bosses for weeks before next wing opens. And making 25m as easy as 10m.
Even without previous tier 25m 10 is still easier. Example, compare Marowgarr 25 and Marowgarr 10, 1 vs 3 bone spikes meaning that it is more likely to have important people frozen in 25m, while in 10 its usually just one dps.
Yes yes, Sarth 3D 10 man was harder than 25 man. And I'm talking strictly about normal modes.
There is a large amount of people willing to raid, have too much brain to be counted in "casuals", and are still not willing to give effort needed to run Hard modes.
And the preposterous "you can start raiding in greens" concept will make first Cata tier both 25 and 10 man absolute facerols for people in L85 5man HC 5man epics.

I know you don't get it, but someone did the math a little while ago demonstrating exactly how a 10 man is harder based on pure performance requirements out of each individual player.

A 25 man can lose 5 DPS before being effected. a 10 man cannot even afford to lose two without it being a wipe most often, unless you outgear the instance.

you can afford to have 5 morons in your raid. if I have 5 morons in MY raid, there's no point in going. Hell, even having one moron is enough to make the night scream-worthy (oh pug night, how I hate you) - you can have someone walk off a cliff or fall down dead in the first 10 seconds and not even batter an eye, in probably every fight but Arthas.

In my tier of gear, one moron can prevent us from doing rotface/festergut (which we have on farm...but the actions of ONE person can jack it up, STILL).

25 mans that I've attended in my "crap gear" are totally hilarious, because I facestomp people who do 25 man content exclusively - because they don't have to be on the ball near as much as I do.

the hardest thing about 25 mans is finding 25 halfway decent players. the hardest thing about 10 mans is having players who are willing to put up with harder content for lesser rewards just so they can raid with their friends.

[tilgare]

The biggest problem I see in this thread are the "Go outside, nerd" comments.

People who enjoy running 10-man AND 25-man content throughout the week have every right to dictate how they use their game time. They may not be the players playing 50 hours a week, perhaps they play 16 hours a week - they raid 25 mans 2 nights, 10 man 1-2 nights, and farm achievements the rest of the time. This player may not like leveling alts, he may not enjoy farming gold, he just likes to raid and do a few achievements in the short time he has to play. Otherwise, he's out with his wife and kids at the movies, or working, or sleeping a healthy amount, or out with a few of the guys for a night. Who in the hell are ANY of you to tell him to "go outside" because he's upset that he doesn't get to run 10-man and 25-man content? He has a very small amount of time he likes to invest in this game, and he is entitled to spend it HOWEVER he wants to. He is, thus, perfectly justified in disliking OR liking the changes being made. I don't care HOW gigantic your penis is (or more likely, how small), you have no right to cut him down for playing this game the way he wants to.

Personally, I enjoy both 25 and 10 man content. I enjoy the smaller, more laid back atmosphere in a 10 man raid, but I also enjoy being a part of something bigger and more epic. With the loss of the ability to do both, I will definitely be doing 25 man content. Cry as you will (and have for over a hundred pages now), this will not "be the end of WoW", "kill 25 man raiding", "make loot useless" or whatever foolish argument you care to make. It is a change just like any other. It brings us closer to BC raiding while still giving the flexibility of 10 mans as an option as in WotLK. I look forward to seeing how it plays out.

[Zamien]

Great , blizzard has outdone them selves in getting people into guilds and going 25 man raids. Now they seem to try hard to get rid of guilds all together.
What is the use of a guild if you can clear a 10 man in 2 nights and then bugger of till reset.

This game is becoming more and more casual. I don;t mind casual but there has to be a balance. And with this change blizz is tipping the scale towards casual big time

Manny

Really? By giving the same gear for 10 and 25 man they are trying to get rid of guilds?
Are you clearing ICC HC every week in 2 nights? Have you done Algalon?

I have been playing wow since Vanilla, first as a 40 man raider and now as a 25 man raider. I just went through the death of a guild that for 4 years was the #1 guild on the server as recruitment on 25 mans is very hard. It currently is too easy for people to get loot in average guilds so unless you are super guilds, recruitment is painful. The guild I joined is having problems recruiting as well. No one wants to leave their easy loot smaller guilds for a chance at more progression. I seriously doubt many 25 man raid guilds will survive this. Instead, they will shrink to a core of their 10 to 15 best players and go on as that. Yes, this will make it easier for the lower end masses to get the "same" loot but the top end is going to shrivel up and die.

Yes it is hard to recruit to a 25 man guild. We are about 40 active raiders with an average of 60-70% attendance to 5 night of raiding. But if you lose people becouse they want easy loot in an even more casual guild is that really the people you would like to build your progression around? Maybe there will be fewer 25-man guilds when getting rid of the loot hunters. But is that a bad thing? Fewer but more serious 25-man guilds focusing on progressing?

But I agree with you that they should keep individual achivments for 10 and 25 man raids.

I think we have to ask ourself why we play. I know I play becouse I think it's fun and feeling of happyness when we as a guild succeed in progressing. I don't see anything in the blue-post that would change that feeling.

[cerbul]

Yes, the current system is flawed, and the next to come will be flawed aswell:

In a system with same loot being given for both 10 and 25 ppl, the result will be like this:

1. the more things given to 10 ppl, the worthless will be to do 25 ppl.
2. the things that blizz already promised to give to make up for the hassle of running a 25 ppl raid, are worthless. Legendaries, mounts and titles are the things that really matter, and yes, it will suck to not have them in 10 ppl.

Now find a balance between those

[Deleted]

The same loots for 10/25 is fine.

But why take away the freedom to do both a 10-man and a 25-man the same week?
As a casual guild we learn the fights in 10 and then can do them in 25.
The shared lockout won't help us at all.

This is partly the reason raiding is so easy nowadays, People learn the fight in 10's and subsequently find the 25 version far easier. As a "hardcore raider" myself, i cannot wait to only have to run the dungeon once a week.

[Maimai]

Sooo, Blizzard has finily done it.. i have never posted on MMO before. thought this might be the time for me to get started...

Tyvm for completely distroying 25 man raiding guilds. As a semi hard core raider i do my HM 25 man raids during weekdays then on weekends do 10 man's for the meta's and stuff... I dont mind the shared loot between 10 and 25 mans, but i DO MIND the shared instance lockouts... thanks for giving me the courage to quiet wow when cata comes out.

Im happy for all the casual raiders, u finily get wow on super easy mode with the same rewards as Hardcore Raiders.. Goodbye Paragon, Ensidia and the rest of the awsome 25 man raiding guilds...

I know WoW is one BIG money making game, but removing the realy good players and recruiting the 12 year old kids realy wasent what i expected from Cata, why not just make the game a single player game with a shared Capital's Trade channel for stupid spam ? and to keep the online subscription moneys rolling in ?

Anyways other than WoW, whats the best MMO availible now?

[Rootofalleli]

I am glad someone did the math finally for those of you who apparently failed simple math in school. For there to be a much bigger advantage to 25 mans.. the loot that drops would have to be at least 6-7+ more items for the ratio to be significantly higher than 10 mans. And for those of you arguing that the loot tables will be the same size(20 items we will say) than you have a lower chance to see the one item you want, at least in 10 man, when you see it you have a higher chance of getting it as you don't have 3-4 other people who probably also want it. We don't get the advantage there for 25 mans.

This point has been raised a few times, but I'll pick on you. Obviously numbers are hypothetical. Probabilities are found the usual way.

10m: 20 item loot table, 5% chance of [trinket] dropping. 1 drop per raid. If only one person can use it, he has a 5% chance of getting it.
25m: 20 item loot table, 5% chance of [trinket] dropping. 3 drops per raid. Now 3 people can use [trinket]. Assuming no repeated drops, probability = 1 - (19/20)(18/19)(17/18) = 15% chance to see the item. But 3 people want it! So you still only have a 5% chance =[

So far it looks like we'd be foolish to run 25m- extra effort, same chances. But that's wrong. Every week there is a 15% chance that someone in your guild will get [trinket], versus a 5% chance in the 10m. This is great news- your guild is more likely to get an item that makes a big difference. If you're concerned about your gear score or your app to another guild, maybe you only care about the 5% chance that [trinket] will be yours.

They are removing the 10/25 man achievement differences. You want to do achieves, the game will mark that you did it no matter WHICH difficulty you did it on, removing the "epic feel" of accomplishing it on 25 man cause their wont be a different tier of achievements. So that epic feel of 25 man's for that purpose is now gone.

Not set in stone. The blue post is filled with uncertainty, but you are treating this like it's all been decided.

Also, they are removing badges from the system entirely in lieu of a "points system" and then they are putting a cap on how many you can get per week. Unless they make the cap EXTREMELY high so that you can't possibly reach it by doing EVERY 10 man available(which I also highly doubt because, as this blue post proves as well as nearly everything Blizz has done to ruin raiding for this game, Blizz loves casuals) there will be no point to doing 25 mans for this case either as you will reach the cap by doing 10 mans just as easily as you would busting your ass in a 25 man. So the "MOAR BADGES FOR 25 MAN" argument is ALSO invalid.

Amazing. Someone who does every 10m available is casual? Pretty sure people who kill a few raid bosses every few weeks while leveling alts, BGing, running heroics, and chatting in cities are casuals. If you can clear every 10m available without 25m gear/experience, you're a pretty serious raider. Don't bother replying with "MOAR" and "LOLFACEROLL" and "WELFAER EPIX" noise.

(and who keeps doing ToCx4 for crying out loud? I still see people saying they will be glad they cant do the same instance 4 times a week and using ToC for a comparrison. Really? 4 times with the same toon? Why? If you are doing the 10 and 25 man H content, which you would need to do to do ToC 4 time with ONE toon a week, then why do you still need the loot from the reg 10/25 man instance... this argument that I have seen SEVERAL times makes no sense to me.)

Crazily enough, some who oppose these changes say that this (ToCx4) is their preferred play style. I join you in asking "wtf?!?"

In short, this will more than likely end 25 man raiding. There will be no NOTEWORTHY difference between the 2 instances because there will be nothing that separates them. Not achievements, not gear, not gold, not anything. And for those of you who think that people will still run 25 man instances cause they like 25 man instances? Why do you think we like running with 24 other people that drive us crazy? It probably isn't SOLELY for the social interaction. It's probably for the gear and the challenge. If you remove both of those...(as Blizz said they are doing in these blue posts) why run it anymore?

I agree that some people, both good players and bad, will give up 25m raiding. The people I invite to raids but secretly want to kill will either quit or make me trim the guild down to 15 or so very competent people. But who knows- maybe that other 25m guild on my server that has the same problem will propose a merger. Or maybe I'll just do 10m with my people leave the bigger challenges to someone else.

The bigger a group is, the more likely it is that someone will be AFK or DCed or a pain in my ass. That's just math and it's inevitable. Blizz has created a huge incentive to do 25m raiding right now, and maybe some of those people who can't sit still or who can't be bothered to fix their connections or who just can't get along will quietly disappear from my life once they can get their loot elsewhere. Right now 25m raiding is like Arena in TBC. People do it because they get a decent shot at great loot that will open up doors to more loot. If some people walk away because they actually kind of suck, I'm OK with that.

[roboscorcher]

Many raids/tier + 1 lockout/raid = more variety + more playstyle freedom + similar time spent in content = WIN


Someone suggested breaking ICC lockouts into separate wings, because PuGs really don't have the time to down 11 bosses in 1 go. I LOVED that idea. In a sense, they are doing this for Cataclysm.

[TabascoEU]

Many raids/tier + 1 lockout/raid = more variety + more playstyle freedom + similar time spent in content = WIN

But everyone will lose playstyle freedom with this change, not gain it.

[AzrealaSoFat]

As a 25 man raider who also enjoys ten man raiding from time to time, I'm pretty sad about the change. I wonder if and how some of the weaker hybrid classes will fit in. I know the idea is to bring the player not the class, but that only works if everyone is doing the same amount of DPS, brings the same tanking abilities, and if healers all have similiar tools in thier little boxes. If this is the case, then yea, Blizz is probably making a big mistake because it will be boring. Well, that would be my oppinion.
I'm able to see both sides of the argument and can see possibilities in either direction. This is a huge change and I think for as many people who are happy, there are just as many who are unhappy. I think there are even more people that are willing to wait to test it before they give thier oppinions. Maybe that is the smart thing to do and maybe it isn't. I'm actually surprised at the risk blizzard is willing to take. It seems they are walking a fine line and could possibly piss off a large percentage of thier customers. Always room for new ones, I guess.

I had another thought:
If one of the problems being had is this race for emblems to gear out, why not remove emblem system all together? If I were asked, I'd say it is more problematic than it is worth. I much prefer the way tier 7 and below was handled as far as tier tokens. If they really like the emblem system, could fewer emblem rewards solve the problem of badge grinding? In this scenario, the people who enjoy tens and can't be asked to get involved in 25 man content could do thier thing and those of us in 25 man content could not be bothered with running tens anymore. Could solve some of thier issues....Or possibly say you can do 10 and 25 man raids in one lockout but you can only get 35 badges a week... no matter what you are doing? I don't know. It just seems to me there are ways to approach the changes they clearly want to make without tupsetting as many people as they have. I know there are always going to be haters... but this seems a bit extreme.

[Beyz]

why? couldnt you do it now? or did u had gone to a 25 man raid guild to get gear leaving ur Rl friends behind?
or did your Rl friends left you behind to get loot?

Getting BiS loot is definetely more efficient if you want to be competetive. This way I can have both.

[grdja]

Whoa, someone really misunderstood me. I never mentioned needing to do PVP to get PVE gear or vice versa.

What I'm saying is "should ppl have nearly all slots in near BiS blue 5 man gear from L85 5 mans and from 5 man heroics and couple epics from heroics 5 mans and L85 5 mans"? If you can just take couple pre L85 blues and couple of craftables and go raiding, then what is the point and purpose of L85 5 man dungeons and all 5 man heroics?

And also, wouldn't such low entry gear requirements for raids have people who actually do get and gear up in 5man and 5mHCs absolutely roflstomp first tier 11 raids?

[Direfen]

The amount of ignorance on this issue is astounding!

Your going to be rewarded for getting more members together and raiding in a 25man lockout than you would be if you decided to raid in the 10man lockout.

Example:
10man bosses might award 2 points, 25man bosses might award 7 points.
10man and 25man bosses drop the same iLevel gear (thus dramatically lowering the gear inflation in the process), however 25man might have extra trinkets/weapons/equipment to use should you choose that lockout.
10man and 25man lockouts may provide reputation depending on the raid, however running 25man might grind up the rep at a faster rate.

Sheesh people, its really not that hard to understand. You're making this seem ALOT worse than it really is.

If you think 25mans are going to be no different to 10mans besides the amount of people, you're an idiot... No offense...

Smart 25man raiding guilds will not be affected much by this change, so if you think this change was the end of 25man raids your just another Harbinger of Doom creating a fuss about something which isnt bad at all.

P.S: Lol @ the crybabies cancelling their subscriptions over change.

[Deleted]

A 25 man can lose 5 DPS before being effected. a 10 man cannot even afford to lose two without it being a wipe most often, unless you outgear the instance.

you can afford to have 5 morons in your raid. if I have 5 morons in MY raid, there's no point in going. Hell, even having one moron is enough to make the night scream-worthy (oh pug night, how I hate you) - you can have someone walk off a cliff or fall down dead in the first 10 seconds and not even batter an eye, in probably every fight but Arthas.

Are you really that stupid? Of course it is more severe to "lose" 40% of your DPS than 31%?! (5 DPS of 16 = 31,25%, 2 DPS of 5 = 40%). And of course a fight gets harder if 5/10 (50%) people mess up than 5/25 (20%)...

I have done all Ecounters in WotLK except LK heroic (but seen it nonetheless) and except 3-4 fights, 25 man is always more difficult. Tuned tighter, more people to mess something up, harder to gather 25 good players than to gather 10 good ones, harder to organize, meaner/more abilities/adds, less space, more compleyx positioning and tactics.

Many raids/tier + 1 lockout/raid = more variety + more playstyle freedom + similar time spent in content = WIN


Someone suggested breaking ICC lockouts into separate wings, because PuGs really don't have the time to down 11 bosses in 1 go. I LOVED that idea. In a sense, they are doing this for Cataclysm.

Well, doing a ToC-like raid 4 times is a lot worse than say, doing SSC or TK back then :>