Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Vestig3]

So I can either save my lockouts for my guild so I can do the 25 mans we do every week or I can do the 10 mans with my group of friends and then be unable to do the raids with my guild? That's what I'm getting from this as far as the lockouts go. So if I want to remain in the guild I'm in I have to tell my 10 man friends Sorry but I can't raid with you guys anymore...can't use up my lock outs.

If your part of a guild that raids 25man then yes

[tilgare]

One thing I question is just how 10 man hard modes are going to be just as hard as 25 man. It seems the only way it can be done is to tune it so tightly that you HAVE to stack the group properly. This tends to clash with the "Bring the player, not the class" mantra. Now, they are homogenizing some more with Cataclysm, but if fights are VERY tightly tuned, you're going to want to stack buffs as well as you can to get through them.

On a separate note, I hope that "hard mode" in Cataclysm means more than more health, more damage, more healing. Firefighter has always been a fight that stuck out in my head that really made the fight different. I had high hopes in spite of ToGC that ICC would hold real heroic modes. I think they struck gold with the Lich King fight, Putricide is not TERRIBLY different, but it is quite fun and still adds a new layer of difficulty. Other than those two, Blood Prince Council and Saurfang add a thin layer of difficulty, but they are not substantially different by any means. Otherwise, the changes are so minuscule (or even nonexistent) in terms of fight mechanic changes that it's really just the same fight tuned for better gear.

[Nytmarex]

The absolute only way, and I mean ONLY way, that this can be good is if they have 25 man only raids as well as dual difficulty raids (kinda like Karazhan only being 10 man) because if not, this is surely going to be the death of 25 man raiding...unless ppl just love it so much they won't let it die. Why would someone do a 25 man raid if they can do it on 10 man and have a chance at the same loot? Yeah the drop quantity is higher in 25 but it's much easier to get 10 ppl together, and really the only way i see the drop quantity increase being better is if you're the only one in the raid who needs that loot, or if they have the boss drop all its items every time, because otherwise you're rolling against 24 ppl as opposed to 9 (and I do realize not every single person in the raid needs the exact same loot but bare with me). That would actually be a bad choice but at this point it's just the lesser of two evils. I would love to see some 25 man exclusive raids if they're going to make this change. If they don't do that, then they need to enhance and enrich the 25 man raiding experience to a degree so much higher than the 10 man experience that loot wouldn't be the only reason people choose 25's because otherwise the bad outweighs the good and this will be the death of 25 man raiding.

[Thestalos]

I'm not big on this change at all. I like that equivalent gear will be available between 10 and 25 man versions because that allows strictly ten man guilds to better flaunt and be rewarded for their talents. However, I don't like 1 lockout between 10 and 25 man instances. I respect Blizzard's attempt at change to make things better. After all, you can't know if it works or not if you don't try it.

I like doing FULL 25 and 10 man versions of a raid. In some instances I like full-clearing a 25 man version because I like the accomplishment. Getting 25 people to work cohesively together to accomplish a difficult goal is quite an achievement. Other times I like the intimacy of a 10 man raid because you can really get to know guild members and become better at working together. Blizzard please reconsider to whole "one lockout" thing.

[roboscorcher]

So I can either save my lockouts for my guild so I can do the 25 mans we do every week or I can do the 10 mans with my group of friends and then be unable to do the raids with my guild? That's what I'm getting from this as far as the lockouts go. So if I want to remain in the guild I'm in I have to tell my 10 man friends Sorry but I can't raid with you guys anymore...can't use up my lock outs.

Here's an idea: roll an alt.

[LittleMissSwift]

What's the use of a shaman :/

Bloodlust........

oh wait you mean in cata? yeah what is the use of shamans!

[Auroya]

wall of text inc. sry about that one
From personal experience i simple do not buy the argument but 10mans are exactly as difficult as 25mans and looking at the statistics
Lichking hardmode 25man kills 9
Lichking hardmode 10mans kills 141

Also try to look at the different encounters there is a hell of a difference soing sindragosa in 10mann compared to 25man 5-6 people who can blow you up at clistering cold compared to 1-2 people.
Saurfang positioning in 10man compared to 25man so much easier.
If played both 25mann and 10mann hardmodes and the alot constricted space encounter are simply easier.

The real funky problem is probably going to get the whole thing balanced. Back in the days of trial of the grand crusader 10 man or sartharion 3d, at least on my server the generel opinion was “anub is only doable with a melee heavy raid so dont even ask to come with us caster person we dont want you”. Reason melee where better at cleaving whirlwinding the adds down.

And if 25 man schould die unfortunatly that is what i think in 10man there will be alot of class focus and one can only hope plzplzplz blizz dont nerf my class i love playing and i play it good but with the tools provided im not able to competable dps compared to other classes. (think back to how overpowered the dks where starting wotlk and the insane dmg they could do, we had a total idiot in the raid playing a dk but because dks where dks at that time he made insane dps, and if somebody comes with a “oh a whine about overpowered class” well sorry for stating the truth about somethings and disturbing youre allmighty image that all classes where created equally and are in total balance and harmony with each other^^). So every patch classes will have to wait out ok will i have a class that i can raid with or has the nerf hammer struck my class so deeply that i might as well reroll or quit because with this class or specc i’m not going to be invited for anything. (and yes word travels fast when a class has been patch-butt-fucked) 

Is this the end of 25mans, dont know but i fear that a recruiting for a 25 man guild will be extremely difficult or listen to this salespeach”we offer 4 raidevenings a week, you get the same loot a bit less valor points and gold as you would have gotten in 1 evening of 10 mann raiding, you will probably have to switch on an encounter basis depending on encounter demands and which of your class collegues would like to raid on a given evening so you will not be guaranteed seeing all bosses every id”.

As one of my guildmates said well the time spent compared with the rewards gained simply dont add up then when comparing 10 man to 25 man raiding, you use more time on getting to learn the encounters because you have to change the team from evening to evening and since alot of hardmodes simply are tougher in 25 man compared to 10 man you spent more time on them too, at least that is true for my guild.

But really one of the things that i will miss schould the 25 mans die is yes the epic feeling of being able to accomplish a task with a group of 24 other people with whom many i have played for many years now. If we were to become a 2 to 3 10 man raids guild alot of those people i simply would not see they would be doing their thing and we would do our thing and being in a guild together well pointless because there are no great big events that would demand 30-35 people to be in a guild. After some time some would you know what we want to start our own thing goodbye thx for everything you can find us in our new 10 man guild we want to be in control of our own 10 man raid. Why you might ask simple, in guilds of a certain size you always have people that you like and dislike and tolerate and you have to go 25mans with them its ok cause the gains overweigh the problems but with 10man raid sizes you end up thinking do we really have to stand for the crap that this and that is doing. Not really ok lets make our own guild.

One of the funny things is also with 25mans you have a greater turnover of people i would believe you simply get to meet a whole lot of other people and interact socially so to speak with them(yes i know not i the normal common sense, but in a feacebook twitter era who is to judge^^). You simply have to be more open concerning recruiting as a 25 man guild where as a 10 man guild you end up with your little clique and thats it.

Ive heard some say cool awesome now we can kick all the crappy warlocks and only do 10 mans with cataclysm cause who needs 25mans anymore...

Is there any good way to end this post not really but well i think that considering everything this will make the logistical and time used effort to build a 25 man guild and maintaining it simply not viable compared with the benefits that you gain from it. Or as one said cool now i dont need a 25 mann guild anymore.

p.s. funny how everyones thinks yes more loot in the 25man= more loot for you. Not really imo you will have to share it with everybody else so might be that imba caster trinket a drops every week in 25 mann but since youve got 8-10 casters in the raid you get it perhaps in week 8 or 10 where as ok 2-3 caster in the 10 mann raid it droops every say 2 or 3 weeks you still get it faster.
In short 2 items 10 man doesn’t equal 2 items for you neither does 5-6 items 25 man equel 5-6 items for you 
p.p.s. or maybe this will just be the death of the medicore guilds.

[Odexy]

Here's an idea: roll an alt.

He shouldn't need to roll an alt just to raid with his friends.

[rkma]

Here's an idea: roll an alt.

So we should force people to grind / level / farm etc. another whole character, just to play with friends. And this is supposed to help casuals get into raiding?

Fail

[pesto81]

He shouldn't need to roll an alt just to raid with his friends.

...or he could just guild with his friends.

[Zyneste/Leo]

Stop catering for players who havent got the tie and give them other goals to acheive. 25man was the best part of this wrath expansion which frankly wasnt anything on TBC. Why kill big raids to cater for those who cant be arsed to get into a 25man guild? If you dont have the time then why complain you cant do it. Honestly, Cata was looking nice but sharing a lock out period is complete nonsense and i hope they realise before multitudes of players leave. WHy bother 25manning now ( and more loot OMG YAY MOAR LOOT) means nothing

[Odexy]

...or he could just guild with his friends.

Clearly this isn't an option, otherwise he would be doing so already.

[Snes]

The sky is falling!!

*runs around in a circle*

Indeed.

[Moke]

...
WHy bother 25manning now ( and more loot OMG YAY MOAR LOOT) means nothing

Well perhaps they'll add a new color, Turquoise, to be the new epics in cata. But wait that would mean people will be forces to do 25m raids because 25m raids drop Turquoise with same stats as epics from 10m. So I guess no new color.

[Falkano]

Very sad day for wow really.

The end of an era. Those who helped make this game as popular as it is now will remember the day when they 1st downed Ragneros,Nefarion,Ony,C Thun etc... those days when it felt like an epic achivement to finally take down one of these guys after weeks of trying, wiping, but persisting.

The game has finally gone welfare epics friendly. Basically with this update comes blizz saying "hey those people who have no desire to be in a guild, have no desire to work at something, have no desire to put the effort into working as a guild, people who nerd quit after one wipe etc.. deserve the same equipment as everyone else!".

Those people defending it saying "i don't have the time to 25 man", cut the bollocks. Doing 10 mans takes up many hours of your day just as doing 25 man does, the time consumption are longer only in difficulty.

As others have mentioned with this logic why make raids at all? Why not just have 5 man runs, why not make gear based on how many emblems you can get from 5 mans. The only difference is the amount of people right? Dropping 15 players to 10 mans is a bigger drop then 10 mans to 5.

Some of the things people are saying is just stupid "i can only play for 1hr a day, i should have the same gear by standing around in ironforge as some guy who put's lots of time into raiding". The system has changed from you earning it to you expecting it.

Websites such as this that run to show what is happening, show HARDCORE guilds progress etc will be done. With a trillion 10 man guilds nobody will give a monkies about them. Everyone knows who has killed LK 25 on therir servers, nobody cares who has done it 10 man.

So what annoys me about it is not that the gear is the same, but that blizz yet again change the raiding sytem to benefit those who can't be arsed to put the time in ahead of those who are here night after night trying to complete their content. It is a slap in the face of those who play in proper guilds. It really will be a game killer for some people. For those people who love the idea then i am happy for you. But when your strolling around in dalaran your look exactly the same, with the exact same gear score as the guy your trying to show off to. Your uniquness based on your achivements has gone. And in my opinion that is sloppy game designing.

[roboscorcher]

So we should force people to grind / level / farm etc. another whole character, just to play with friends. And this is supposed to help casuals get into raiding?

Fail

1) How are you NOT getting into raiding this way? With your situation, you would only have one option per raid, not zero.
2) No one's forcing you to reroll. It's just a simple solution to your self-made problem.
3) Raid content is being split up, so if you really can't stand rerolling, just do one raid with guildies and another with friends.

Your 'problem' is self-imposed, and you're unwilling to even level an alt to solve it. QQ isn't much of an argument.

[Nytmarex]

...or he could just guild with his friends.

the problem is that blizz is making him have to choose to play with either his friends or his guild and that's not right

[Moke]

Indeed.

Perhaps you can share your vision on how you interpret the information blizzard gave us and make the QQ stop. Cause clearly 98% of the community seems to be missing the clues to interpret the info.

[rkma]

1) How are you NOT getting into raiding this way? With your situation, you would only have one option per raid, not zero.
2) No one's forcing you to reroll. It's just a simple solution to your self-made problem.
3) Raid content is being split up, so if you really can't stand rerolling, just do one raid with guildies and another with friends.

Your 'problem' is self-imposed, and you're unwilling to even level an alt to solve it. QQ isn't much of an argument.

1) If I cannot raid with my friends, they will not get into raiding.
2) If I don't re-roll, I cannot raid with my friends and/or do 10-man for any other reason.
3) Yeah, that will really go over well with the progression guilds.

[Flameenix]

Going to roll a second mage just so I can enjoy both 10 and 25 man content. Too bad I hate leveling...

This will be my third character too, second was a nightmare!