gemming Def/stam

[Khellen]

so there is a druid on my server that uses 10def/15 stam gems in some of his sockets with a 6 stam bonus...is this viable gemming or is he just an idiot?

i dont play a druid but it just doesnt look right to me...your thoughts?

[littlepiggy]

you can do it if you like avoidance, and technically with that socket bonus that combination outweighs a pure 30stam gem.. but most druids just do pure stamina

[Khellen]

thx

[Sunshine]

It's not bad for yellow sockets with amazing socket bonuses, like the +8 agi bonus on the t9 head or a case where you have blue + yellow sockets for a large bonus.

[Richmond]

As others have said, its more that viable. Providing that the socket bonus is worth it. 6 Stam and 8 Agility are too juicey to miss out on.

What most people forget is that although bears are crit immune through talents alone, gemming Def still gives a ever so slight +chance to miss. Which is always a good thing and i think (dont quote me) but at very high gear levels, +Defence becomes just as good or if not better a stat as Agility does, in terms of avoidance. Because of diminishing returns.

I doubt anyone is actually at that stage yet and even if they are, with the Chill of the Throne debuff and the 10% buff to HP in ICC, everyone is gemming nothing but stamina.

[Sunshine]

What most people forget is that although bears are crit immune through talents alone, gemming Def still gives a ever so slight +chance to miss. Which is always a good thing and i think (dont quote me) but at very high gear levels, +Defence becomes just as good or if not better a stat as Agility does, in terms of avoidance. Because of diminishing returns.

I doubt anyone is actually at that stage yet and even if they are, with the Chill of the Throne debuff and the 10% buff to HP in ICC, everyone is gemming nothing but stamina.

In my ICC gear, 1 def rating > 1 agi in terms of pure avoidance; however, the agi gives additional armor and crit, so it's never going to be completely replaced.

[Bob002]

Actually had this discussion with someone the other night.

[Rédempteur]

As others have said, its more that viable. Providing that the socket bonus is worth it. 6 Stam and 8 Agility are too juicey to miss out on.

What most people forget is that although bears are crit immune through talents alone, gemming Def still gives a ever so slight +chance to miss. Which is always a good thing and i think (dont quote me) but at very high gear levels, +Defence becomes just as good or if not better a stat as Agility does, in terms of avoidance. Because of diminishing returns.

I doubt anyone is actually at that stage yet and even if they are, with the Chill of the Throne debuff and the 10% buff to HP in ICC, everyone is gemming nothing but stamina.

Exactly this. More defense means the boss will not hit as hard. It's not as good as say, ulduar or ToGC, cause of the 10% buff now active, but it's still a nice stat to add when attempting HMs.

[Gribel]

Def+stam just plain sucks. Some socket bonuses may be acceptable, but definately not 6 stam as Richmond said.

9 stam (15-6) for a bear means a bigger increase in EH than for any other tank because of their talents, bear form (+stam) and crazy amounts of armor because of all the agility they have on gear, while defense means a smaller avoidance bonus for bears than for any other tank because all they get is minimal dodge (diminishing returns ftl) and miss, which is 3 times less than other tanks get (disregarding diminishing returns and block). Also avoidance is unreliable.

I'd never gem def+stam on my bear tank nor would i recommend it.

[Ielenia]

Exactly this. More defense means the boss will not hit as hard. It's not as good as say, ulduar or ToGC, cause of the 10% buff now active, but it's still a nice stat to add when attempting HMs.

Erm, having more defense doesn't mean the boss will hit less hard. It only means the boss will hit less often. There's a huge difference between the two. Armor is the stat that reduces a boss' physical damage.

[Melonberry]

Normally you'd use hit/stam, but def/stam is fine.

[rated]

I wouldnt gem that way ever. I would rather have 10agi/15stam before I could consider a def/stam gem.

[Sunshine]

defense means a smaller avoidance bonus for bears than for any other tank because all they get is minimal dodge (diminishing returns ftl) and miss, which is 3 times less than other tanks get (disregarding diminishing returns and block).

Bears get dodge and miss; other tanks also get parry and block (and crit immunity, if they're under cap, of course). Block is not avoidance, it's mitigation (like our SD), so leaving that aside, bears get 2/3 the avoidance benefit that other tanks do. That's not "3 times less".

What's an acceptable socket bonus to go for? 4 agi / 6 stam is the standard single socket bonus level (e.g., this and this). Maybe it's worth it, maybe it's not; I generally tend to think not.

If you look at double socket bonuses, though, it's 6 agi / 9 stam (e.g., this for agi; no leather 2-socket stam-bonus gear exists, but it would be equivalent to this plate version if they choose to introduce some), which is more promising, especially if the other socket is your normal preferred color (such as blue for a full stam gem).

Going to 3-sockets or the bonus on a helm with meta socket, the bonus is 8 agi / 12 stam, which is definitely a good possibility, depending on how many non-desirable sockets you have to use.

I wouldnt gem that way ever. I would rather have 10agi/15stam before I could consider a def/stam gem.

10 agi / 15 stam is most certainly superior to 10 def / 15 stam, but the agi/stam gem doesn't activate a yellow socket. The question is whether it's worth using a gem that's not quite as good in order to get a bonus stat, and the answer is that it depends on the magnitude of the bonus.

[FOZZIEBEAR]

RAWR occasionally recommends gems that would seem odd at first (namely 10def/15stam and 10 agi/10 dodge or something) for yellow slots with good bonuses, but really it's too complicated to take everything into account by guesstimating which is best in our head, so we just have to have faith in the program really.

[Gribel]

Bears get dodge and miss; other tanks also get parry and block (and crit immunity, if they're under cap, of course). Block is not avoidance, it's mitigation (like our SD), so leaving that aside, bears get 2/3 the avoidance benefit that other tanks do. That's not "3 times less".

I also said that the amount of dodge bears gain is minimal, L2Read.

[Sunshine]

I also said that the amount of dodge bears gain is minimal, L2Read.

It's not that much less than other classes; our dodge DR coefficient is much more lenient than theirs. Plus, on the other hand, the other classes receive less miss from a point of defense due to DR, since they have more defense overall. If it doesn't even out completely, it's close enough that "three times" is way too much of an exaggeration.

[Tiolith]

I used to gem Def+Stam in yellow when I was hit capped
now I'm using Hit+Stam where the socket bonus is decent
if I eventually reach the hit cap again then I'll start swapping back to Defense

it still gives Dodge and Chance to be Missed