Bear Tank help

[lepino]

We are currently 9/12 ICC HM in10man but we feel our bear tank doesnt have enough HP. Our DK tank has like 3k more fully buffed. It seems he is using some cat gear for threat and dps such as his trinket.

Here's the profile (EDIT: given proper profile): http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...ger&cn=Baituri

Should he get more strength+stam tanking pieces like neck and back? Should he replace his trinket?

Any ideas would be great.

[Richmond]

Its hard to judge as the link you supplied does not show and enchants or gems (or is that just a problem with my browser?) Can you please post a Char name / realm or a wowarmory link.

From what i can tell you, he needs:

Tanking neck - the one from Jaxx 10 man HC would be a start
Tanking Cloak – The badge one is pretty much BiS outside of hard modes
Tanking trinkets – The two he has are blatantly DPS trinkets. With the gear he currently has, if he has threat problems without those trinkets, then you should consider a different tank. Tell him to grind ToC 5 man normal until he gets the Black Heart, then he should pick up the EoT armor trinket. After that, he wants to be aiming for the EoF stamina trinket which would up his stamina by a massive chunk (with the ICC buff it’d work out at around 4k HP alone)
A more tanking orientated weapon – The one he has is OK, but with it having more agility and Arp, its obviously a DPS weapon. Get him to get the Battered Hilt one or the one that falls from Rotface on 10man (If he can do the princes, I’m assuming he can do him)

Another option would be to drop skinning and powerlevel a decent endgame profession. I picked JC because its flexable. But BS or Enchanting are equally worth it.

Other to that, he wants a healthy mix of 30 Stam (Blue), 10 Agility + 15 Stam (Purple) and 10 Def + 15 Stam (Orange) gems. If he isn’t hit capped then 10 Hit + 15 Stam (Green) is another alternative. Cloak and hands should be enchanted with Agility (In higher gear levels Armor enchants become more worth while) every other item slot should be enchanted with some form of stamina.

By looking at his gear, it is as if he’s a damage dealer that is transiting into a tank, would your guild not be better of keeping him as a DPS (as he has invested a lot of badges that way already) and getting a different tank?

[Hendrixstorm]

I don't know about everyone else, and I understand you're not trying to name and flame, but when I use that website I can't see any of his gems / talents / glyphs. He looks to be using DPS neck/both trinkets / cape, which is stupid on all levels. Especially if he's dying. For farmed content, it's something I've considered doing myself, but if the tank is dying and he has that much DPS gear it needs to stop. If threat is his concern he needs to drop a LOT of expertse and hit both of which caps he is far over. You are given tools to manage threat, and if your MT is a DK, threat should pretty much be irrelevant, IT machine guns are impossible to pull off of. Is he armor capped in bear?(75% with buffs) That's a pretty huge deal in addition to his obvious lack of stam. I know you don't want to embarrass him but that's all the aid I can give you without an armory link.

[lepino]

Ive added the armory profile

http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...ger&cn=Baituri

[Hendrixstorm]

#1 He's gemming for hit <=== NO NO NO NO NO NO
#2 He's gemming for expertise <==== NOOOOOOOOOOO.
#3 He has an attack power enchant instead of mongoose <=== NO.
#4 His talent spec There is no reason not to have feral instict capped, and if you have a death knight (Even when not tanking) there is NO reason to have infected wounds, which would be points MUCH better spent in improved mangle. He's so far over the expertise cap he could drop the 10 expertise talent and put them elsewhere
#5 He does not have glyph of frenzied regen, which macroed with survival instincts functions like vampiric blood (the coolest tanking cooldown EVER)
#6 Do that, get more tanking gear that should help you a ton

[Deleted]

#1 He's gemming for hit <=== NO NO NO NO NO NO
#2 He's gemming for expertise <==== NOOOOOOOOOOO.
#3 He has an attack power enchant instead of mongoose <=== NO.
#4 His talent spec There is no reason not to have feral instict capped, and if you have a death knight (Even when not tanking) there is NO reason to have infected wounds, which would be points MUCH better spent in improved mangle. He's so far over the expertise cap he could drop the 10 expertise talent and put them elsewhere
#5 He does not have glyph of frenzied regen, which macroed with survival instincts functions like vampiric blood (the coolest tanking cooldown EVER)
#6 Do that, get more tanking gear that should help you a ton

[Cheezee]

He has 1 hit gem. It's not the end of the world. I do agree with you on the staff enchant though, mongoose and/or blood draining are better enchants.

He should drop points out of King of the Jungle and fill out Feral Instinct. The extra damage/threat from more swipe damage is worth more than the 15% damage increase for 10 seconds every minute. That would leave a point for Omen of Clarity which isn't a stellar tank talent but it does help when you're in cat form (P1 Sindragosa, Fester 9 stacks, etc...).

I'm guessing he probably has around 60-63k hp buffed with the 15% icc buff. I find it hard to believe he's getting killed because he doesn't have enough hp for hard modes and according to his achievements you're stuck on Putricide and Sindragosa which are more coordination fights than anything else.

[tibben]

#4 His talent spec There is no reason not to have feral instict capped, and if you have a death knight (Even when not tanking) there is NO reason to have infected wounds, which would be points MUCH better spent in improved mangle. He's so far over the expertise cap he could drop the 10 expertise talent and put them elsewhere

I don't agree with dropping Infected Wounds. There are enough fights where your DK is not going to be attacking the same target where Infected Wounds is a real life saver (Raging Spirits and Shambling Horrors on LK for instance). He should take those 3 points out of KotJ and put 2 in Feral Instinct and just shove the other one in Omen of Clarity. That is the cookie cutter MSS build and will provide plenty of threat given appropriate level gear. Also Glyph of Maul is just stupid unless all he's doing is tanking adds. It gives no benefit for any single boss fights and Glyph of Growl is a much better alternative since Growl uses spell hit, not melee hit. I also would not drop the points in expertise. The "cap" is not 26. That is the dodge cap. Even at the dodge cap there is still a 7.5% chance to be parried. Extra Expertise beyond the dodge cap is not at all wasted. I have 43 expertise on my bear and I need every ounce of it with the beasts in my guild that call themselves DPSers.

I do agree with the rest of your assessment though and for the love of everything Druid please tell him to stop wearing Cat gear for tanking Heroic Raids. I use some for a few of the easier fights in Heroic 10 ICC, but that's only because we severely outgear every boss in there at this point. Considering that he's still got a bunch of 251 gear tell him that if he wants to be a tank he needs to wear gear to keep himself alive.

[Hendrixstorm]

He has 1 hit gem. It's not the end of the world. I do agree with you on the staff enchant though, mongoose and/or blood draining are better enchants.

He should drop points out of King of the Jungle and fill out Feral Instinct. The extra damage/threat from more swipe damage is worth more than the 15% damage increase for 10 seconds every minute. That would leave a point for Omen of Clarity which isn't a stellar tank talent but it does help when you're in cat form (P1 Sindragosa, Fester 9 stacks, etc...).

I'm guessing he probably has around 60-63k hp buffed with the 15% icc buff. I find it hard to believe he's getting killed because he doesn't have enough hp for hard modes and according to his achievements you're stuck on Putricide and Sindragosa which are more coordination fights than anything else.

It may not be the end for the world, but he's doing it wrong. There is no reason to drop KotJ, especially because you can use it with berserk at the opening of a fight for huge threat, and he could fill out Feral Instinct elsewhere. Using your own logic, King is HUGE for kitty dps, but that's not really a concern at all. Omen of clarity is a overall garbage tanking talents, that may change in cata (TBA), but right now it is. 63k Might even be a bit lower then what he has, but that does sound like a ballpark for 10 mans. Also, I don't know if you've done it before, but putricide hits decently hard (although tank deaths are usually more to attest to healers getting slime knock backs / orange goo chased / mallable goo at bad times. The real big error there is that heroic sindragosa hits like a fucking freight train.

[Hendrixstorm]

I don't agree with dropping Infected Wounds. There are enough fights where your DK is not going to be attacking the same target where Infected Wounds is a real life saver (Raging Spirits and Shambling Horrors on LK for instance). He should take those 3 points out of KotJ and put 2 in Feral Instinct and just shove the other one in Omen of Clarity. That is the cookie cutter MSS build and will provide plenty of threat given appropriate level gear. Also Glyph of Maul is just stupid unless all he's doing is tanking adds. It gives no benefit for any single boss fights and Glyph of Growl is a much better alternative since Growl uses spell hit, not melee hit. I also would not drop the points in expertise. The "cap" is not 26. That is the dodge cap. Even at the dodge cap there is still a 7.5% chance to be parried. Extra Expertise beyond the dodge cap is not at all wasted. I have 43 expertise on my bear and I need every ounce of it with the beasts in my guild that call themselves DPSers.

Bosses don't have parry haste, so expertise provides no survival bonus, and if threat is the issue, why not just talent for threat instead of itemize for it? I'd figure armor pen would be a bigger threat boost then expertise right? Remeber also that even a DPS death knight throws the IT debuff on targets, and all the tank has to do is pest to get the debuff everywhere, which the druid could just ask him to do, I don't see any reason to take the Wounds talent. Lastly, why omen of clarity?

[Ormula]

#5 He does not have glyph of frenzied regen, which macroed with survival instincts functions like vampiric blood (the coolest tanking cooldown EVER)

Never macro two cooldowns together, especially when both of the cooldowns are very good themselves. That's just a waste. "OHSHIT" buttons are only good in pvp. And even then, not so much.

[Modez]

Never macro two cooldowns together, especially when both of the cooldowns are very good themselves. That's just a waste. "OHSHIT" buttons are only good in pvp. And even then, not so much.

I beg to differ. The following are the ones I have macro'd together:

Frenzied Regen + Herbalism profession heal
Ignis Trinket + Skeleton Key
Barkskin + Enrage
Survival Instincts with nothing bound to it

This works very well for soul reaper. Essentially you can take 5-6 of them without getting destroyed for phase 2 and 3 separately.

[Hendrixstorm]

Never macro two cooldowns together, especially when both of the cooldowns are very good themselves. That's just a waste. "OHSHIT" buttons are only good in pvp. And even then, not so much.

Did you really come in here and tell me that OHSHIT buttons are not good for tanking?

[tibben]

Bosses don't have parry haste, so expertise provides no survival bonus, and if threat is the issue, why not just talent for threat instead of itemize for it? I'd figure armor pen would be a bigger threat boost then expertise right? Remeber also that even a DPS death knight throws the IT debuff on targets, and all the tank has to do is pest to get the debuff everywhere, which the druid could just ask him to do, I don't see any reason to take the Wounds talent. Lastly, why omen of clarity?

Expertise: 10 Expertise = 2.5% less chance to be Parried = 2.5% more chance to hit. I'm not sure where you think I said "itemize for expertise". I don't have a single Expertise gem. I said use the 2 talent points for 10 Expertise. I can assure you that there are no talents that give you armor pen nor will you find any NON essential tanking talents that give you more threat than 2.5% increased chance to hit. My argument was simply NOT to drop the points in one of the best threat producing talents that you have.

Infected Wounds: How bout if you are solo tanking Valanar and Taldaram on BPC while the DK is tanking Keleseth. There is no way you can guarantee the DK is going to apply the slowing debuff to YOUR tank targets while he is busy running around trying to grab orbs. The point is that you should not talent as if some other tank is always going to be there to apply the debuff as this is not always the case. He also never said they had a DK dps, he said they had a DK tank. If you can guarantee that in all situations for the rest of WotLK you will have someone else applying the slowing debuff to all of your targets, then I guess that's just fine. Can you guarantee that every target that you are going to tank will always have the slowing debuff applied to it by someone else?

OOC: It's just a filler talent and considering that you can just cast a few spells before a pull to proc OOC so your first hit consumes no rage it's an okay talent to have.

[Hendrixstorm]

Expertise: 10 Expertise = 2.5% less chance to be Parried = 2.5% more chance to hit. I'm not sure where you think I said "itemize for expertise". I don't have a single Expertise gem. I said use the 2 talent points for 10 Expertise. I can assure you that there are no talents that give you armor pen nor will you find any NON essential tanking talents that give you more threat than 2.5% increased chance to hit. My argument was simply NOT to drop the points in one of the best threat producing talents that you have.

Yeah, I said that backwards. What I mean is, if he was going for threat, why not get more armor pen instead of less expertise? I wouldn't really rank it anywhere near the top threat producing talents.

Infected Wounds: How bout if you are solo tanking Valanar and Taldaram on BPC while the DK is tanking Keleseth. There is no way you can guarantee the DK is going to apply the slowing debuff to YOUR tank targets while he is busy running around trying to grab orbs. The point is that you should not talent as if some other tank is always going to be there to apply the debuff as this is not always the case. He also never said they had a DK dps, he said they had a DK tank. If you can guarantee that in all situations for the rest of WotLK you will have someone else applying the slowing debuff to all of your targets, then I guess that's just fine. Can you guarantee that every target that you are going to tank will always have the slowing debuff applied to it by someone else?

That's true, and that's not my case. But the reality is, Tald + Valanaar kind of hit like girls, you are right in that in the right situation, there would be no attack speed slow on the tanks target, and if that was the case then it would be worth it. I just don't see this happening on any of the real tank smashers. (Festergut, LK, Sindragosa, Marrow) so I suppose your talent tree can change depending on what is causing you to struggle where.

OOC: It's just a filler talent and considering that you can just cast a few spells before a pull to proc OOC so your first hit consumes no rage it's an okay talent to have.

/shrug. I don't have it, but I doubt getting it/not getting it makes any difference in anything.

[lepino]

We do have a DK dps if that helps

[bavarcarus]

Hit and expertise are better for threat than ArP when you're below caps. Even after softcap expertise is better than ArP. I don't remember where I saw it but someone linked to the math somewhere on this forum. That said if you're doing 25m ICC you should be able to get your Exp from gear, but I've found hit is a problem. IMO all tanking classes should be using the taunt glyph and attempting to cap hit...taunts are extremely important with the fights blizz has designed in wrath.

He needs to drop MSS or KotJ to get feral instinct, while there's debate as to which way to go for the first 2 FI is undebated as a needed bear talent. Swipe is close to 1/3 of a bear's rotation.

I just looked at his derived stats rather than going over gear...he's almost 40 over hit cap...gemming hit is kinda dumb.

His dps trinket is dumb too assuming his low health is actually presenting a problem in fights (and I would expect it to).

Cloak and neck should be tanking items, while there might be a threat difference between using an agi dps item vs the tank item I don't think it's that significant and I'm not sure which way the advantage would be. Agi doesn't give a bear AP, Str that's on tank items gives 2 AP to bears before talent modifiers, kings and trueshot aura/abom's might. The emblem tank cloak is BIS 264 for most bear setups.

I'd be curious to see the DK you're comparing this bear to, is their average Ilvl the same?

[tibben]

Yeah, I said that backwards. What I mean is, if he was going for threat, why not get more armor pen instead of less expertise? I wouldn't really rank it anywhere near the top threat producing talents.

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0ZxGGs...cczVkbAc0b:n0M

So given that this represents a basic MSS build, you would now take the 3 leftover points and put them in Improved Mangle? My issue with that is that while you now can use Mangle every 3rd attack instead of every 4th attack you are also going to be parried 2.5% more often. A Parried attack = 0 threat + 0 damage. I'll have to check EJ forums and see if any of the math elitists have some numbers worked out here, but I'm fairly certain that the extra threat/damage you produce from having Mangle available 1.5 seconds earlier (one GCD earlier) is going to be less than the amount you can produce when you hit 2.5% more often. If you are under the dodge cap by at least 2.5% then those 2 talent points would actually give you 2.5% less chance to be dodge AND 2.5% less chance to be parried and I don't think there's any way you can argue that 5% less chance to miss would outweigh Improved Mangle.

[Hendrixstorm]

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0ZxGGs...cczVkbAc0b:n0M

So given that this represents a basic MSS build, you would now take the 3 leftover points and put them in Improved Mangle? My issue with that is that while you now can use Mangle every 3rd attack instead of every 4th attack you are also going to be parried 2.5% more often. A Parried attack = 0 threat + 0 damage. I'll have to check EJ forums and see if any of the math elitists have some numbers worked out here, but I'm fairly certain that the extra threat/damage you produce from having Mangle available 1.5 seconds earlier (one GCD earlier) is going to be less than the amount you can produce when you hit 2.5% more often. If you are under the dodge cap by at least 2.5% then those 2 talent points would actually give you 2.5% less chance to be dodge AND 2.5% less chance to be parried and I don't think there's any way you can argue that 5% less chance to miss would outweigh Improved Mangle.

This should have been done from the beginning of the debate
http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...=Sejta&group=1 Guild leader of paragon, 43 expertise, 2/3 imp mangle /thread

[Deleted]

Oh oh, a fellow lightbringer
*vanishes from thread*