1. #1

    Bear Talents question

    Hey guys, currently levelling druid up in dungeons as a bear with my friend healing as a pally.

    Basically, I'm most likely gonna make this my main character when he finally hits 80. I'm trying to learn as much as possible before I get there. My question is which of the recommended bear talent specs is gonna be the best to spec into as there are 3 listed.

    I'm guessing Maximum Mitigation is more for HM's?

    Which of ImpLotP or Master SS is going to be better for heroics and 10 man raiding?

    Many thanks in advance

  2. #2
    Deleted

    Re: Bear Talents question

    If you only raid with your guild that also got a feral Druid with imp lotp you can dro that talent and take mss for better threat. Personally, I pug alot and got imp lotp. Click on my armory (in sig) to take a look at my specc.

    The specc you linked is imo not good

    Feral aggresion is imo not worth to take, since a ret pala can give the same debuffs (attack power reduced).

    3/3 feral instincts is awesome, help alot with aoe tanking.

    I would drop feral aggresion and get 2/2 imp lotp and 3/3 feral instincts. Then you got 2 pints left. I choose to take them in shredding attacks. Not for the 2 rage reduced lacerate cost, but cuz I sometimes pvp as tank and like the reduced shred cost.

  3. #3

    Re: Bear Talents question

    I'm currently more speced along the ImpLotP route, althought not 80 yet. I guess I was more asking if Master shapeshifter is better than taking the Imp Mangle/ KotJ 5 points?

    Guessing KotJ provides some good burst threat for the start of a fight

  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans arel00's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    2,852

    Re: Bear Talents question

    So does Berserk.

    If we're talking about heroics, you can safely go Imp.Mangle and KotJ, because you need burst and only burst, long-time threat is nothing to worry about.
    If we're talking raids, MSS nets more overall threat than the other 2 talents. Plus, Enrage on a real boss is a suicide.

    It's debatable if you want more burst or more overall TPS after you have 4t10, since that makes Enrage a survivability cooldown, instead of a dangerous tool.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  5. #5

    Re: Bear Talents question

    i will always advice to take mss instead of imp mangle (it's just bad for tanks) and kotj which is a cat talent and nothing will change that. and do get 3/3 feral instincts it's a must.

  6. #6

    Re: Bear Talents question

    As Arel said, picking up KoTJ isnt such a bad idea whilst you are leveling, combine that with beserk on a hairy AOE situation and you could save your Healer / DPS's butt. But once you hit 80 and start taking things seriously, MSS is the way to go, pick up Infected Wounds and drop Imp Mangle all together, its not very good.

  7. #7

    Re: Bear Talents question

    Thanks for the help guys, I shall take your advice. I was worried that the reduction in the mangle cooldown might be an issue, but obviously I'm over rating mangle.

    I was also thinking that Natural Shapeshifter was a pretty weak talent, but obviously the 4% damage increase you get from master shapeshifter must make up for it, plus trying to get the 10 rage from 3 points in Furor, probably makes the 30% reduction in cost actually ok.

    I'm guessing KoTJ worth taking with 4 piece T10 though (which is obviously a looong way away for me lol)

    On a side note, should I be glyphing Maul, Frenzied Regen and Survival Instincts at 80, or drop one for mangle or growl (or is growl unglyphed reliable enough)?

  8. #8

    Re: Bear Talents question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylan
    I'm guessing KoTJ worth taking with 4 piece T10 though (which is obviously a looong way away for me lol)

    On a side note, should I be glyphing Maul, Frenzied Regen and Survival Instincts at 80, or drop one for mangle or growl (or is growl unglyphed reliable enough)?
    MSS will still be your friend with 4-piece T10 over KotJ. If you start relying on a survival cooldown to be your threat cooldown, you'll either find yourself in a threat or survival situation where you go "oh crap, I really wish I didn't blow it then." MSS will always be present despite a cooldown, leaving 4-piece T10 in the survival category and always available when you need it (well, every 1 minute at least).

    In terms of glyphing, it's all depends. If you're starting with the 5man heroics right away, I'd say Maul glyph is a wonderful choice. Basically, any time you expect there to be multiple mobs up at once on which you must keep threat, Maul glyph will give you that extra threat edge... especially when people can't focus on the same thing! Once you start getting into the raiding environment, there are times when tanks need to do taunt rotations, some having more dire effects then others if you miss: this is where glyph of Growl comes into play. Glyph of Mangle... well, on my server, the prices are ridiculous to maintain a good stack of these glyphs, and there are only a few fights where Glyph of Growl/Maul wouldn't be optimal, so I've never bothered for the glyph in a PvE situation. However, Frenzied Regeneration and SI glyphs are definitely keepers for almost every encounter.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  9. #9

    Re: Bear Talents question

    I was also thinking that Natural Shapeshifter was a pretty weak talent, but obviously the 4% damage increase you get from master shapeshifter must make up for it, plus trying to get the 10 rage from 3 points in Furor, probably makes the 30% reduction in cost actually ok.
    NSS/MSS is among the least efficient ways to spend your points. This falls into the "highly optional" part of your spec that could be spent elsewhere.

    Threat from ImpMangle and KotJ can be timed with berserk, and it takes a very long time for MSS/NSS to catch up... 4+ minutes to overtake, and 10+minutes before it pulls ahead -on average-. To the extent that threat is more valuable at the start of a fight, not after 10+ minutes into the fight, MSS/NSS may not be a good allocation of points if you tend to enrage+berserk to lead things off. (If you don't enrage or berserk at the start of fights, then the constant threat of MSS/NSS will do better.)

    Neither one is a make or break ability (You are talking about +0% survivability, +4% threat off of 5 talent points... you could as well do without either one and add some pvp flexibility.)

    I personally like Mangle, Maul, Regen glyphs, run with those 90% of the time. I swap in a taunt or SI in when the fight requires it. Glyphs are the new flasks and all.

    I'd personally spend my points in 2 KotJ and 3 improved mangle, rather than in MSS/NSS. If you use enrage/berserk early and whenever they come off cooldown, they will outperform. If you hold off using those abilities... then MSS/NSS may do slightly better for you.

    At any rate, the net difference is so small that you don't need to worry too much about it.

  10. #10

    Re: Bear Talents question

    Quote Originally Posted by Cortano
    Threat from ImpMangle and KotJ can be timed with berserk, and it takes a very long time for MSS/NSS to catch up... 4+ minutes to overtake, and 10+minutes before it pulls ahead -on average-. To the extent that threat is more valuable at the start of a fight, not after 10+ minutes into the fight, MSS/NSS may not be a good allocation of points if you tend to enrage+berserk to lead things off. (If you don't enrage or berserk at the start of fights, then the constant threat of MSS/NSS will do better.)
    I presume you meant it will take 4 minutes for MSS DPS to take over the KoTJ & Beserk combo? Because if it were me and you on a raid boss, you blew your KoTJ + Berserk combo whilst i gently built up my lacerate stacks. I bet you i could pull threat off you within 30 seconds of your Beserk falling off... without a taunt.

    And as others have already said, 4pc T10 makes your enrage a Defensive cooldown, why would you realistically want to use them both at the same time?

    Inb4 all the Imp Mangle & KoTJ lovers. I've tried both specs with 4pc T10 and i can personally say that threat always feels alot healthier and 'sustained' with MSS than it ever will with KoTJ, oh and i'll still have my enrage free for 'Soul Reaper' or what not

  11. #11

    Re: Bear Talents question

    Quote Originally Posted by Cortano

    At any rate, the net difference is so small that you don't need to worry too much about it.
    Pretty much this. You're going to find yourself adjusting your spec/glyphs to the situations the more you tank. When you start out, though, it really won't matter too much how you spec, but heroic 5mans are mostly super-short fights. In 10/25man raids, you'll have to test the waters a bit.

    I'm in the situation where Shadowmourne + fury warrior and frost DK's = 15-20k sustained TPS from the top DPSers that I have to manage, and I want the rogues to use TotT on themselves as much as possible, so those long fights are a battle for threat even until the boss dies. With this in mind, I need the best sustained threat while optimizing my survival. Currently, I'm the only tank in my guild that can manage to out-threat our Shadowmourne friends and frost DKs without external help, and I have my spec choice to thank for that (actually thinking of moving my 1 point in KotJ into Imp Mangle for a tighter rotation... that 0.5sec dead time is starting to annoy me). Of course, not everyone is going to find themselves in the extreme situation that I'm in, you'll probably have more liberty in spending your talent points.

    Most people are in two categories: either you out-TPS everyone by a large margin or no amount of spec/glyph changes will allow you to keep threat. Just don't go 0/71/0, you'll have the Blizz blue posters on your butt! ...can you even do that nowadays as Feral? Bleh, who cares, point remains!
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  12. #12

    Re: Bear Talents question

    Quote Originally Posted by Cortano
    I personally like Mangle, Maul, Regen glyphs, run with those 90% of the time. I swap in a taunt or SI in when the fight requires it. Glyphs are the new flasks and all.
    I don't know why you would ever use Mangle glyph. 10% more damage of Mangle is definitely not worth a major glyph spot when compared to SI or Growl. I know you said you swap them, but imo Mangle should never be in there. Growl should always be in there except for fights where the boss is taunt immune.

  13. #13

    Re: Bear Talents question

    Quote Originally Posted by Richmond
    Inb4 all the Imp Mangle & KoTJ lovers. I've tried both specs with 4pc T10 and i can personally say that threat always feels alot healthier and 'sustained' with MSS than it ever will with KoTJ, oh and i'll still have my enrage free for 'Soul Reaper' or what not
    By the time you get to "Soul Reaper or what not" your threat lead should be rediculous from dps off time and you have your defensive cooldown free to use.
    Enrage berserk at your 5th lacerate point in starting rotation(when dps full procs start to catch up to the innitial tricks/MD boost).
    Pretty much every fight where the "defensive" cooldown from your 4pc is useful you know when it's going to be and when to have enrage off cooldown ready to use, doesn't mean you can't use it in other places.

    For the origonal poster, dont spec feral agression until specific raiding conditions merit it, leveling up you get less rage!
    Imp leader or the pack is bread and butter leveling, free heals and mana regen eliminating downtime, at 80 you wouldn't spec out of it unless was another feral with it, even then i still go 1 point always(nothing worse than being oom after a b-rez and having to blow innervate or mana pot on self just to shift back forms).

    Mangle is a pure threat glyph.
    Survival Instincts and Frenzied regen are our pure mitigation glyphs.
    Maul, Growl, Rebirth, +cat glyphs are all utility Glyphs you may or may not use depending on the fight.
    GLYPHS ARE RETARDED CHEAP, if you don't have an inscriptionist alt and dont have any friends then sucks to be you, AH prices in no way shape or form reflect how retardedly cheap it is to get stacks of glyphs made to swap whenever you want.

  14. #14

    Re: Bear Talents question

    And as others have already said, 4pc T10 makes your enrage a Defensive cooldown, why would you realistically want to use them both at the same time?
    Why not? I personally find that the beginning of a fight is the most dangerous time; healers can be caught unaware and/or out of position. I think popping a quick recycling defensive cooldown (or two) at the start of every fight is a good idea.

    Inb4 all the Imp Mangle & KoTJ lovers. I've tried both specs with 4pc T10 and i can personally say that threat always feels alot healthier and 'sustained' with MSS than it ever will with KoTJ
    Lets put it in context:

    MSS vs. Improved Mangle

    - MSS is a 4% damage increase for 5 talent points (0.80 per point)
    - Improved Mangle is a 2.8% damage increase for 3 talent points, ignoring the glyph (about 3.1% increase if you have the glyph) (0.93 per point, without glyph; 1.03 per point with the glyph.)

    The main upshot is that we have three talent points being spent to increase threat by ~3%. (MSS has the advantage of more burst in a berserk, while mangle may benefit you more when using the glyph, grinding, pvp, or cat form.)

    Over time, improved mangle is better threat, but MSS is a bit more bursty.

    In short, the two talent choices are very close in terms of threat. (and both are kind of sucky.)


    KotJ vs. MSS

    - 1 point in KotJ off cooldown increases damage by 5%, one sixth of the time: a 0.83% increase in damage per talent point. (However, if beserk is used while kotj is active, kotj is a lot more!)

    - comparing 20% of MSS (1 points worth: 0.8% threat) vs. KotJ_1 (0.83% threat) .... if enrage is used off cooldown, kotj pull way ahead initially, continues to stay ahead. and MSS falls farther behind dramatically every 60 seconds.

    I you don't use enrage off cooldown, your DPS will be lower (for example, you use it every 2 minutes, you fall behind 0.4% of threat per minute.) However, if you time your enrage with a berserk, your threat will be higher over time. If enrage is used during berserk, saving it at all other times, and use berserk off cooldown, KotJ is more than double the threat; about 2.5% / point. If you use enrage off every cooldown, berserk with enrage off every berserk cooldown, KotJ is worth over 3% threat per talent point: triple the effectiveness of MSS over time, and significantly more than that in a burst.)

    Over time, KotJ is better threat (if enrage used quickly), it is more front loaded, and can be combined with berserk to be extremely front loaded. It is a trade-off between "threat on demand" vs. "wanting to save enrages".

    Once again VERY similar results that show slight differences due to play style variations.

    oh and i'll still have my enrage free for 'Soul Reaper' or what not
    seriously, the soul reapers are in phase 2... the transition alone is the same length as the enrage recycle... enrage is going to be back for the soul reapers: you have time to get a couple enrages in before you need to start watching for those. (and during that phase, you will be using it every cooldown anyway, to catch every other soul reaper.)

  15. #15
    Herald of the Titans arel00's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    2,852

    Re: Bear Talents question

    Let's avoid dragging this into another KotJ vs MSS fight, shall we?

    As I said:
    - KotJ while leveling
    - MSS while raiding, before 4t10
    - DEBATABLE after you have 4t10

    End of it. We all agree on this, so further discussion is futile.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  16. #16

    Re: Bear Talents question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylan
    I'm currently more speced along the ImpLotP route, althought not 80 yet. I guess I was more asking if Master shapeshifter is better than taking the Imp Mangle/ KotJ 5 points?

    Guessing KotJ provides some good burst threat for the start of a fight
    There's a lot of debate on this, but I still think MSS will give more overall threat. If you are not in danger of losing aggro you can use the KotJ spec for burst, but you probably won't need the burst if you have the MSS build. KotJ is nice if you have a Rogue putting up TotT while you are Enraged and Berserking to get that initial threat, but once that's done MSS will eventually catch up in threat.

    I've been tanking Heroic ICC 10 and 25 with the 2/3 KotJ + 3/3 Imp Mangle build, but I'm certain that I can switch to MSS today and do just as well if not better. And of course, you wouldn't use the KotJ build at all if you didn't have the T10 4 Piece bonus, so I would start working toward the MSS build and after you get 4 Piece T10 you can try the KotJ build and see if it works for you.

  17. #17

    Re: Bear Talents question

    This is what I consider to be all of the "essential" bear talents.
    Every other is optional and not particularly valuable: the "flavor" points.

    Some people might include "infected wounds" in the optional list as well. (I feel its pretty important, but player circumstances differ.)

    Primal Precision is "optional" because it can be replaced by gear, only a single boss in ICC parry-hastes (Sindragosa), where the dangerous part of that fight is spell damage and not melee damage. While gearing up it is a more useful talent.

    Other than Maul, the other glyphs don't make much difference. (and Maul is mostly for heroics and clearing trash, not boss fights.) Most people swap them in and out to match specific needs. (Taunt is useful only on tank swap fights, mandatory there, and worthless in all other cases.) SI and the Healing one are situationally useful in fights where you need cooldowns to survive; worth using when your guild is consistently wiping on fights due to the tank dying (essentially lich king fight again.)

    The bottom line: pick the ones you feel fit your playstyle the best. There are no "wrong" choices for those points; nothing you pick will materially impact your ability to tank.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •