Fury [LK Guides & Cataclysm Changes]

[Opeth69]

.....AND i forgot about that.... im dumb, i only thought about the Threat part of it, although Overpower + ArP could potentially "overpower" it (hehe i made a funny)

Remember nearly all our attacks for fury will scale with AP and rage meaning extra crit and extra AP of berserk stance will still make it best without doubt, argh I really want to test SMF with epic 1h on beta cleave is going to be so godly

[LoLHellcy]

Remember nearly all our attacks for fury will scale with AP and rage meaning extra crit and extra AP of berserk stance will still make it best without doubt, argh I really want to test SMF with epic 1h on beta cleave is going to be so godly

well don't forget that Overpower almost always crits, and we'd also get rend (+ mangle = good DPS) along with the 10% ArP

ultimately its 3% crit and 20% STR vs. 10% ArP + 2 new, hard hitting abilities. it would not be absurd to me that it over takes it, but you have a valid point. (WotLK showed that ArP > STR to a certain point, so its possible that that + 2 extra abilites could overtake xerk stance)

[Opeth69]

Yes but the really important thing your forgetting is how little arp were getting as fury, there's none on gear, none from mastery only the 10% from battle stance and you know that STR>ARP at lower levels considering all gear will be loaded with strength our STR will be at such high values 20% from berserker will be even better, I doubt sitting in battle stance spamming Rend and OP will be better than berserker, plus if you take improved rend and taste for blood your losing something along the way

[Athens]

Yes but the really important thing your forgetting is how little arp were getting as fury, there's none on gear, none from mastery only the 10% from battle stance and you know that STR>ARP at lower levels considering all gear will be loaded with strength our STR will be at such high values 20% from berserker will be even better, I doubt sitting in battle stance spamming Rend and OP will be better than berserker, plus if you take improved rend and taste for blood your losing something along the way

You dont really lose anything along the way... It will simply come down to whether 10% arp is better then 20% str as stated before.

I cant post links since im a long time lurker. But itsquite easy to move the points around for both of those talents

Now im not saying this is definatly doable. But the potential is there... Testing, testing is what we need!!

[Opeth69]

You dont really lose anything along the way... It will simply come down to whether 10% arp is better then 20% str as stated before.

I cant post links since im a long time lurker. But itsquite easy to move the points around for both of those talents

Now im not saying this is definatly doable. But the potential is there... Testing, testing is what we need!!

20%str will be better, were going to have godly amount of AP as fury in cata with AP scaling abilities I just cant see sitting in battle stance with full Fury spec and masteries is worth it, consider how much 20% str will be giving us once every piece of gear we have pretty much is loaded with strength, even now 20% str vs 10% arp is likely to favor for STR, in cata the sheer AP gain of being in berserker stance along with the crit will mammoth 10% arp,

[LoLHellcy]

20%str will be better, were going to have godly amount of AP as fury in cata with AP scaling abilities I just cant see sitting in battle stance with full Fury spec and masteries is worth it, consider how much 20% str will be giving us once every piece of gear we have pretty much is loaded with strength, even now 20% str vs 10% arp is likely to favor for STR, in cata the sheer AP gain of being in berserker stance along with the crit will mammoth 10% arp,

ok but you have 10% ArP, Rend (which is enough to make high end warriors stance dance as is) and Overpower to contend with, vs. 3% crit and 20% STR. i think that until we get numbers to crunch we will only be able to guesstimate what will be better. WTB Beta key plox?

---------- Post added 2010-07-02 at 06:54 AM ----------

also: those 2 moves would be in addition to HS / Bloodthirst / Slam / Victory Rush, so i mean its going to be a full rotation if it works like i hope.

[Slasha]

Hey, single minded fury says, that cleave hits with both weapons.
But at this point cleave hits for 15 - 30% of AP, so its not a weapon dmg ability like slam.
So do you guess, this is just an error, or will cleave remain a weapon dmg based ability?

[Ragorna]

I think, what the tooltip is saying; is that you will hit your target with both weapons using the cleave mechanic. So, you do 2 cleaves, one with each weapon.

That's how I read it, might be wrong. But a blue said they we're going to clean up the tooltip, so we'll have to wait a bit to be sure.

[Pickwickman]

I think, what the tooltip is saying; is that you will hit your target with both weapons using the cleave mechanic. So, you do 2 cleaves, one with each weapon.

That's how I read it, might be wrong. But a blue said they we're going to clean up the tooltip, so we'll have to wait a bit to be sure.

Yup this.

Slasha what you seem to be forgetting that cleave is a regular autoattack, but buffed with +dmg based on AP and an extra target. You can easily scale this ability for your offhand too, so it's a MHweaponswing + OHweaponswing + dmg based on AP.

[Opeth69]

ok but you have 10% ArP, Rend (which is enough to make high end warriors stance dance as is) and Overpower to contend with, vs. 3% crit and 20% STR. i think that until we get numbers to crunch we will only be able to guesstimate what will be better. WTB Beta key plox?

---------- Post added 2010-07-02 at 06:54 AM ----------

also: those 2 moves would be in addition to HS / Bloodthirst / Slam / Victory Rush, so i mean its going to be a full rotation if it works like i hope.

Its been proven stance dancing to rend is a dps loss no matter which way you look at it. As far as cleave being AP based yes its something were getting for cleave, it seems most of our fury attack will be AP based instead of wep dmg to try and balance TG with SMF however what it means it SMF will quite likely out dps TG by some margin due to the -10%dmg debuff fot TG and +20% for smf should outweigh the stat difference and then the extra damage of both weps hitting should clinch it.

[Baabinator]

Its been proven stance dancing to rend is a dps loss no matter which way you look at it. As far as cleave being AP based yes its something were getting for cleave, it seems most of our fury attack will be AP based instead of wep dmg to try and balance TG with SMF however what it means it SMF will quite likely out dps TG by some margin due to the -10%dmg debuff fot TG and +20% for smf should outweigh the stat difference and then the extra damage of both weps hitting should clinch it.

In cataclysm rage will be controlled more, and this might make Rend a possible button to click for TG users (since rend scales of weapon damage) when at or below 25 rage with Tactical Mastery (so no rage is lost)

I could see it happening:

You're at 20 rage after a series of abilities
Switch to battle stance
Apply rend
Burn rage to get back to <25 rage (e.g heroic strike)
Back to berserker stance.

The only thing that bothers me is that the -10% physical damage reduction on TG still applies : /

[Devlin1991]

Its been proven stance dancing to rend is a dps loss no matter which way you look at it

No, please don't post if you havent checked your facts first, rend is ~2-3% damage increase if you can do it correctly.

SMF will quite likely out dps TG by some margin due to the -10%dmg debuff fot TG and +20% for smf should outweigh the stat difference and then the extra damage of both weps hitting should clinch it.

No, blizzard will balance them to be as near to equal as possible. Posting that crap is completely pointless. Do you think that blizzard would allow SMF to dominate TG in cata ..

[Opeth69]

In cataclysm rage will be controlled more, and this might make Rend a possible button to click for TG users (since rend scales of weapon damage) when at or below 25 rage with Tactical Mastery (so no rage is lost)

I could see it happening:

You're at 20 rage after a series of abilities
Switch to battle stance
Apply rend
Burn rage to get back to <25 rage (e.g heroic strike)
Back to berserker stance.

The only thing that bothers me is that the -10% physical damage reduction on TG still applies : /

Well it might be quasi-viable for TG since OP will hit decently hard and Rend will as well. However, you will destroy your ability to do decent AoE damage since you won't be able to use WW or Bladestorm + Sweeping Strikes. You will also sacrifice all of your mobility since you won't have easy access to Intercept and won't have Juggernaut. You will also have the same issue as Arms when it comes to having an interrupt. You won't have any Strength scaling. You will be behind a full Arms build by 10% Strength and 20% behind a Fury build.

Basically the build is going to sacrifices the benefits of Fury talents that buff utility in Zerker Stance without getting the deep Arms talents that bolster its damage and utility. So I guess it will be a gimmick build that might do semi-decent dps, but it won't have any utility. Also you can't pick up Wrecking Crew while getting TfB and Imp OP, so that's out for even TG. It just isn't viable.

Dropping 2h Spec isn't a good option either. A passive damage increase for all your skills versus trying to pick up an instant that you might not even have room for if they make Slam instant (something I can see them doing).

No, please don't post if you havent checked your facts first, rend is ~2-3% damage increase if you can do it correctly.



No, blizzard will balance them to be as near to equal as possible. Posting that crap is completely pointless. Do you think that blizzard would allow SMF to dominate TG in cata ..

Rend can be at best 2% but it relies on "ideal" situations to use it as part of your rotation. That why i said it's probly not worth doing, also if you havent got especially high fps or not a decent ms then switching stances at the ideal time can be a slight problem, most people see a 100-200ish dps increase form doing it correctly but the problem is if you mess it up the potential for dps loss is huge, and depending on your gear setup and slam procs you may not be able to keep it up for a sustained period of time. Ive tested it correctly and it does work but to me running on an often unreliable connection and fps its not worth the risk in hc icc.

As far as TG vs SMF go, you cant genuinely believe blizz will be able to balance the two perfectly, I mean blizz allowed Fury to dominate arms for the entirety of LK (apart from a short stint in t8) and dual wield 1h's t dominate 2h fury and arms in TBC. There's too many variables to get it dead on in regards to single target and aoe dps, SMF will scale better too hitting with both weapons on slam and cleave and not suffering the -10% physical dmg from TG. I expect one to outshine the other, atm it seems to be SMF. The main advantage for Tg is the extra weapon stats, but do you really think that getting maybe 200 more AP on each weapon is going to make up for the massive AP scaling advantage of SMF? On HS SMF gets 6.74% more AP as damage on the low end and ~20% more of your AP as damage on the top end.

If the AP difference due to weapon stat differences is 400 AP total then SMF would do more damage with HS when you surpass 5925 AP (hint: you should have more than that now). If the AP difference was even as much as 1000 AP SMF would pull away from TG at 14.8k AP, and judging by the gear that is coming out in the beta so far I can see that being a very easy mark to hit early in the expansion. And that is just with HS which is the ability closest in scaling between the two.

I think a few options will likely happen; blizz will leave SMF or TG ahead of the other to enough of an extent people will choose that specific spec to raid with. OR blizz with make them slightly better for different things, perhaps an aoe vs single target advantage but it seems doubtful as the aoe opportunities are dying out in cata. Then there is the one I dread, blizz makes one better, we all spec into it then they spend the rest of cata attempting to balance the both with buffs/nerfs causing us to have to keep switching gear and specs every tier.
I personally think they should jsut choose one make it clearly better and have done with it, I dont mind which, I prefer SMF as I did enjoy fury in vanilla/tbc but I cant see any other sensible option for them.

The only way I can see real balance is if they were normalized:
Titan's Grip
Allows you to equip two-handed axes, maces and swords in one hand. While you have a two-handed weapon equipped in one hand, weapon damage done is reduced by 10%.

Single Minded Fury
While two one handed weapons are equipped, increase weapon damage done by 20%, and increase stats gained from one handed weapons by 135%.

This makes that TG and SMF identical assuming that all damage dealing abilities fury has are either AP based or have a normalized weapon damage (which means Deep Wounds and Slam would need to be normalized.) and would leave which one you use entirely up to personal preference of rage generation model and asthetics, which is how it should be.

If you want to make the asthetic difference more obvious, you could keep the idea for SMF of attacks hitting twice, just balance it accordingly (ie SMF Heroic Strike hits twice, once for 40% AP and once for 20% AP, it's the same thing as hitting once for 60% AP, but on your screen it shows as more smaller hits which makes it feel different)

[Netsky56]

Do you think TG with 2x 2H weapon will still be competitive?
Thanks

[Opeth69]

Do you think TG with 2x 2H weapon will still be competitive?
Thanks

Yes it'll still be competitive i suspect but unless things are changed SMF will be a stronger dps spec. Its so early to tell though, the biggest problem I can see with all the new changes is having 2 chance on proc abilities, which will have a huge effect on our dps depending on rng on fights. Blizz really should make slam an instant, as if HS is actually taken off the GCD but given a CD it would be a useful GCD filler. That way we then have VR procs as a way of saving rage for more/bigger HS or even proccing inner rage meaning as we scale with better gear we can start to use these rage dumps more effectively.

I found a pretty nice post showing some good thought's on our cata rotation that I share:

"The one complaint I do think is very important is our 'rotation' currently. We have, as someone earlier pointed out, 1 rotational ability, 2 rage dumps, 2 procs, and execute, which is basically another rage dump available below 20%. I was running some numbers a while back in a thread about rage normalization, and found we would be filling ~70% of our gcds in base level gear if I recall correctly (I'm not looking up the math to see the exact number. If anyone wants to do so and prove that statistic made up on the spot wrong, do so. I know it was better than 50% but significantly lower than 100%), as long as we got an average number of procs.

My problem with this though is that we are incredibly RNG oriented with the current model. Procs make up such an inordinate part of our dps that having 10% fewer procs than normal could make us perform much lower than expected. Similarly, a unlucky string of rng on swings means much more drastic consequences, because it means we use less heroic strikes, which made for a very large part of the procs.

And of course, all of this becomes much worse when you consider the currently considered change by GC to take HS off the GCD. While it would still fill the same role for fury, it's now not filling a gcd. I can see the need to do this, given both other warrior specs are completely gcd locked, and heroic striking represents a large opportunity cost for them. But if that's the case, what's wrong with letting fury have a button to press at all times?

We need a standard filler attack, at the very least. I don't care if you give Victory Rush a rage cost and let it be spammable, with impending victory making it free (and maybe even proc that tasty heal, but that may be OP). In fact if you did that you could make the impending victory proc rate much lower, like 20% chance of proccing off a crit rather than 20% off a hit, without us caring much. Another suggestion is just take the cast time off slam, and have Bloodsurge do something else entirely, or just remove it. Let us use rage on abilities that aren't rage dumps or procs. Just giving us a filler would turn the procs into a much smaller percent of DPS, making Impending Victory a proc to let us conserve rage, which in turn lets us use more heroic strikes later down the line, and slam procs either go away, or become a moderate dps increase when they proc, rather than being 30% of our damage.


That alone would make fury seem more complete, just having something to hit at all times, and managing 2 procs can keep most people happy. We should however have an ability that hits with both weapons, even as TG. WW was already normalized to a 3.3s weapon speed, why can't we have a single target ability that does the same thing? It is identical in value to both SMF and TG, is something that everyone wants, and wouldn't necessarily be overpowered. I'd recommend something that hits for 3x weapon dps on a 9 second cooldown, and for a bonus effect, make your next three strikes also hit the target for 1xoffhand weapon dps. It gives a little more synergy to the rotation, and makes it more interesting.

This isn't asking for a DPS buff, because our multipliers can be tweaked. If giving us a full rotation makes us cause too much damage, then you can nerf coefficients, you can nerf the berserker stance str bonus, you can nerf the effect of baseline mastery pre-stat. This is asking to finally do something you have never done before for the fury rotation: Make it feel complete. Give us tools to play effectively, manage our rage, and have fun with it. The tools are all there, just make them work effectively, please. "

[Kysimir]

Rend has always been a DPS increase in ideal situation. There is a thread on this in the main forums. If you wish to refute this for some illogical reason, then go find the thread. Keep this on speculation for what's upcoming in Cataclysm.

[bloodronin]

so who thinks blood thirst should b reworked to use cleave instead of whirlwind? or at least have cleave a change to proc victory rush

[Opeth69]

so who thinks blood thirst should b reworked to use cleave instead of whirlwind? or at least have cleave a change to proc victory rush

I think the problem atm is having bloodsurge and VR is just too many procs, I say remove Bloodsurge, make slam instant scaling with wep dmg so to give TG a benefit over SMF, and make Fury in the blood be a chance on crit to allow VR on all special abilities (maybe not all but most), that way we actually have a rotation rather than this endless rng proccing mess that is difficult to balance. That way as we scale with gear and get more crit we will get more VR proc's allowing us to save more rage for larger HS and inner rage use meaning we will actually scale pretty well into later tiers.

[Flaks]

So from the looks of it right now, I still don't see fury becoming viable in a PvP setting. Maybe if the wannabe ms effect (furious strikes or w/e) was reworked it might work out but something needs to be done about it that'll allow fury to rise once again.

Seeing as fury's big thing is enrage effects, maybe blizzard aims to go the pseudo-ret pally thing with high sustained burst in the tree without having to rely on healing reduction. If so, that's gonna be my tree! But let's see how things work out. I just hate having to wait to see what the talent trees will actually look like. Most trees still have useless talents and just a slew of new talents thrown into the mix out of the blue.

GIVE ME INFO OR GIVE ME DEATH! and by death i mean beta.

[Opeth69]

So from the looks of it right now, I still don't see fury becoming viable in a PvP setting. Maybe if the wannabe ms effect (furious strikes or w/e) was reworked it might work out but something needs to be done about it that'll allow fury to rise once again.

Seeing as fury's big thing is enrage effects, maybe blizzard aims to go the pseudo-ret pally thing with high sustained burst in the tree without having to rely on healing reduction. If so, that's gonna be my tree! But let's see how things work out. I just hate having to wait to see what the talent trees will actually look like. Most trees still have useless talents and just a slew of new talents thrown into the mix out of the blue.

GIVE ME INFO OR GIVE ME DEATH! and by death i mean beta.

I wouldnt write fury pvp off completely. Id suspect in arena it'll still lack the flair and effectiveness of arms but considering a majority of the focus is on bg's I think fury has a real chance or being viable in that regard. Furious attacks will hopefully have an impressive uptime, also the new bloodcraze + the ridiculous healing of VR which could be a bug but atm is healing for 30% could be good as far as survivability goes. Also the new enrage system could be applied to these talents or even our self heal to increase its effectiveness. I dont see fury replacing arms but I do see it being a much better bg spec than before, but as of yet no real testings been done as most of the class isnt implemented yet on the beta. Also one thing to consider, at the start of LK arms was in such a bad state that a majority of pvp war's went fury as it was the only viable spec to play. Prot too could be suitably strong, however on the beta I think a majority of the dmg prot specs are doing is severely bugged. Vengeance stacks for prot pallies and prot war's are causing upward of 30-40k crits on other players, I even saw a prot pally hammer of righteous a priest for 36k!