The changes to our heals

[fabian]

I'm not a beta tester, but using wowhead.com, one is able to find how our spells are changing.

Flash Heal in Wrath -> Flash Heal in Cata(scale it to level 79, the level than rank 11 FH is learned.)

Greater Heal in Wrath -> Greater Heal in Cata(scale it to level 78, the level that rank 9 Greater Heal is learned)

Those two were the easiest since they did not change much. The Spell ID's are identical to rank 1 of the respective spells. Notice how FH has received roughly a 50% increase in thoroughput and cost. Greater heal in Cata and in Wrath have the same mana cost but in Cata, GH has a ~50% increase in thoroughput.

Heal in Wrath -> Heal in Cata(scale it to level 34, the level of the level than rank 4 Heal is learned)

As you may notice, the Spell Id's are different, and the Cataclysm Heal is actually Wrath Lesser Heal. The thoroughput is roughly equal, but the mana cost is dramatically lowered.

Just as a Comparison, here are the values are level 85:
Fast and inefficient Flash Heal: 28% base mana, 1.5s cast, heals 5227 - 6073
Extremely efficient Heal: 6% base mana, 3s cast, heals 3485 - 4049
Efficient, but slow Greater Heal: 32% base mana, 3s cast, heals 6969 - 8097

[Lysdexic]

I've healed some things in Beta and as of now your digging is pretty spot on:

Tested with ~3000 spellpower:
GH is 1050 mana for 10-11k heal, radiance then ticks for ~200 every second for 6 seconds.
Flash heal costs 1081 mana for about 7.5k heal, radiance ticks for ~150.
Heal costs 196 mana for ~5.5k, radiance ticks for ~100.

I still think Heal's mana cost is excessively low, but who knows. It is DAMN slow and doesn't heal for that much, so I guess that's really the point of the spell. I did this testing with Improved healing (-15% cost of gh and heal, which is why gh costs less than fh)
Since flash heal is, essentially, prohibitively expensive, serendipity needs to get changed.
Last thing: These radiance figures are at lvl 80 still, with 51 pts in holy, and I don't think I had any mastery on gear at the time (i have 2-3 pieces now). If mastery on gear will make the radiance HoT worthwhile I'll be pretty excited because atm it's meeeh). --> Many times I'll chain a renew onto whoever I just casted something on if I know more or less that the heal won't top them off, and this will save me that

[cruxxy]

hmm... I'm sure someone has asked this already, but do Radiance HoTs stack like Ignite? They'd better... OR ELSE

[Lysdexic]

They don't, at all. *

I copied and pasted the bits with the numbers above from the beta sticky thread. Check page 3 for the full details.

*Cast gheal - radiance ticks for 200 -- cast renew immediately after and radiance is ticking for ~20

[fabian]

I have a feeling they will be changed to be like ignite, or else it would be very weak. Also, look at the other healer's slow, efficient spells, they're either 6% or 7%, so I doubt that the cost will change as much.
Healing Wave
Holy Light
Nourish

[h3lladvocate]

I bet it end's up working like ignite. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the T10 2pc works like ignite, so I'd assume this does too. They might add a cap like with Divine Aegis, so it doesn't get into like 10k+ ticks or something ridiculous if your a pure tank healer, but it would be very annoying getting a GH crit for like 20+k and thus making a decent sized radiance, then renewing the tank and it getting overwritten to 20 ticks...

[openair]

So going by Lysdexic's numbers the "+50% thoroughput" fabian noticed on the base spells is just to make up for the sp -> int changes and other talent adjusts? As the fh and gh numbers he listed are about the same as i see on live.

[fabian]

So going by Lysdexic's numbers the "+50% thoroughput" fabian noticed on the base spells is just to make up for the sp -> int changes and other talent adjusts? As the fh and gh numbers he listed are about the same as i see on live.

The Int:SP conversion is 1:1, so expect to see a large jump in Int. The 50% in thoroughput is to make it effective, quick, but it also comes at the cost of being expensive.

[openair]

The Int:SP conversion is 1:1, so expect to see a large jump in Int. The 50% in thoroughput is to make it effective, quick, but it also comes at the cost of being expensive.

lol? ummm no.
from earlier in this thread...

I've healed some things in Beta and as of now your digging is pretty spot on:

Tested with ~3000 spellpower:
GH is 1050 mana for 10-11k heal, radiance then ticks for ~200 every second for 6 seconds.
Flash heal costs 1081 mana for about 7.5k heal, radiance ticks for ~150.
Heal costs 196 mana for ~5.5k, radiance ticks for ~100.

If these numbers are correct, even with the bump in base heal, after talents and gear fh and gh are healing the same as on live. Or in other words, with out this bump in base heal, Lysdexic's numbers would be less then on live. Or in other words... "the bump is to make up for adjusts in sp -> int, and talents..."

[fabian]

lol? ummm no.
from earlier in this thread...



If these numbers are correct, even with the bump in base heal, after talents and gear fh and gh are healing the same as on live. Or in other words, with out this bump in base heal, Lysdexic's numbers would be less then on live. Or in other words... "the bump is to make up for adjusts in sp -> int, and talents..."

Only talents, and even then that is covered by mastery. If you'd noticed, he has roughly the same amount of SP on beta as on live. The only possible difference probably comes from the spell power coefficients.

Now, to actually show that it has been increased, remember, he probably did this without raid buffs.
FH: (2040 + (3000 * .8075)) * 1.1 * 1.03 = 5056
GH: (4270 + (3000 * 1.6114)) * 1.1 *1.03 = 10315

Now, FH saw an improvement in healing based on Lysdexic's numbers, while GH did not. This either means GH has a lower spell coefficient or is bugged. I can not confirm it since I am not in beta. I also suggest not to use the numbers from raiding since you'll have buffs that Lysdexic's numbers do not.

[openair]

And as they're tweaking WHERE all sp comes from, this problem means a few tweaks to coefficients. Or in other words... SP.

[Lysdexic]

From what it feels like to me. Heal is about as much as Flash heal on live, but much slower (and infinitely cheaper).
That's definitely our go-to heal.

In order to justify making flash heal so expensive, and make it worthwhile **emergency heal** I'm convinced they buffed the numbers on that one too. It definitely heals for more than on live.

From my experience of running instances so far, it feels pretty well done. Heal is your ideal choice but will not cut it in many situations. In all situations (boss and trash) I've found myself using all 3 types of heals depending on the situation. The flexibility feels really nice. I feel like I have places to use all of our spells even just in these entry dungeons. It's not boring/stagnant. You've got to switch it up and be varied.

The only thing so far that I can't really determine is PoH chakra. I'm 81, and if I'm solo it takes 3 casts. In dungeons however, it only takes 1 PoH to activate that chakra. Maybe it's a bug related to how many people the spell hits.

[fabian]

And as they're tweaking WHERE all sp comes from, this problem means a few tweaks to coefficients. Or in other words... SP.

Wow, can you not handle that you were wrong? There is a difference between just straight up SP and SP Coefficient. A Nerf in SP means all of our spells are nerfed while a nerf in SP coefficient is only a nerf to that one spell.

GH in Cata: w/o Emp Healing (6442 + (3000 * 1.6114)) * 1.08 = 12178
w/ Emp Healing (6442 + (3000*1.9114)) * 1.08 = 13150

Spell power coefficient formula: Healing - C = (Cast Time / 3.5) * 1.88
C = (3 / 3.5) * 1.88 = 1.6114

So yea, it looks like the coefficient has been nerfed, that or the spell is bugged.

I'll check to see what exactly has happened later.

[thethain]

Keep in mind that GC has just posted "Empowered and Improved Healing are still around (in slightly altered form)" So the likelyhood of Empowered Healing being a coefficient boost is rather low. This is after the new talents (31 pt trees)

My gut says there will be much spell rebalancing after the talent changes.

[fabian]

Keep in mind that GC has just posted "Empowered and Improved Healing are still around (in slightly altered form)" So the likelyhood of Empowered Healing being a coefficient boost is rather low. This is after the new talents (31 pt trees)

My gut says there will be much spell rebalancing after the talent changes.

It will probably be a passive ability instead of a talented one, so I suspect it will still alter the sp coefficient.

[cruxxy]

The other big factor to consider is the huge boost to stam. If we think of our heals as % of total HP, they will drop in size significantly even with some boosts to scaling. That is clearly intentional; Blizz does not want even our big heals to hit for >50%HP like they do now.

[openair]

Wow, can you not handle that you were wrong? There is a difference between just straight up SP and SP Coefficient. A Nerf in SP means all of our spells are nerfed while a nerf in SP coefficient is only a nerf to that one spell.

LOL... this depends on how you look at. To me its all part of the same system. And an overhall of where all SP comes from, and directly LINKING one of the most important longevity stat (int) to the most important thoroughput stat (sp) means adjusts to sp coefficients. Except for a few select spells all 3 second casts (before talents) have the same coefficient, all 18 second hots have the same coefficient, all instant casts have the same coefficient (BEFORE TALENTS, except for a select few spells). Or other then a few exceptions, the base coefficients are defined by the SP system, not the spells themselves. Its just that a lot of ppl only look at coefficients after talents, but were talking about an overall of SP, talents that are in the process of being adjusted, and base values here.

They also want 80 after the cata overhall to be close to 80 now, but for 85 to be very different. The easist way to do this is setup the system (coefficients) for 85, and tweak BASE 80 values so 80 end values are similar to now.

[fabian]

LOL... this depends on how you look at. To me its all part of the same system. And an overhall of where all SP comes from, and directly LINKING one of the most important longevity stat (int) to the most important thoroughput stat (sp) means adjusts to sp coefficients. Except for a few select spells all 3 second casts (before talents) have the same coefficient, all 18 second hots have the same coefficient, all instant casts have the same coefficient (BEFORE TALENTS, except for a select few spells). Or other then a few exceptions, the base coefficients are defined by the SP system, not the spells themselves.

YEa, it depends a lot on perspective, but there is one major thing that you're wrong about. Base spell coefficient is dependent on the spell's cast time, not by the SP system; except for the exceptions.

[openair]

again how you look at it...

The cast time alone doesn't equal a coefficient. Math defined by the sp system does. The cast time is just one number in that formula. The fact that all spells in the same category use the same formula points to an overall system defining these rules. If you want to call this the "spell" system rather then sp, thats just semantics. The fact that the math specifically relates to sp and sp coefficients would suggest the latter. Or thats its all related, and all part of the same system.

And wowwiki seems to agree with me. With a search on "spell power" showing sp sources, and coefficient math. While a search on a specific spell shows none of the math to arrive at these numbers.

[fabian]

Since you like arguing over semantics...

I'd like to ask you, if there were no spells, what would SP be? Since it would be totally useless, anything spell or SP related should be considered part of the 'spell system'.

Now, this thread has gotten way off topic, so if you post again, trying to argue semantics, I'll leave your post alone since it will get this thread even further off topic.