Death Knight Domination

[Malthanis]

so i have a question will for example a deathknight who casts something on a warrior who has spell reflect up, while the dk has dark simulacram what will happen?

mages and spellsteal?

Well, let's see...

In your first example, as far as we can guess right now, the DK would have two copies of the spell they cast at the warrior. Let's use Icy Touch as an example. You'd have the one that cost the Frost rune, and you'd have a free IT from DS.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I highly doubt that DS can be stolen (if it puts a buff on you until you absorb a spell with it). Sure, why not let the DK get a Spellsteal? It can only happen once every 2 minutes anyways.

[rabbimojo]

That would be impossible to implement and balance Voltaire... Take for example
Smite: Smite an enemy for X to Y Holy damage. With a base cast time of 2.5 sec... It works around mana and spirit along with SP... So how would Blizz balance this in that the DK is able to put out the same amount of damage with the SP coefficient as a priest using smite via DS?

Seems like a very heavily loaded spell.

From a coding perspective, it seems likely that spell reflect already duplicates the cast. I of course have no idea how their code really works, so they may have some kind of "redirects" effect (Chain lightning suggests they might), but I suspect otherwise.
Think of it this way:
-When a spell is cast, all the values that determine its power are calculated immediately.
-Original "hits" warrior with reflect up. "Reflect!" or whatever pops up, same as miss, and warrior takes no damage.
-Copy of original is created, casted by the warrior, targeted on the original caster.
Doesn't matter that warrior has no spellpower or spirit, etc. It pulls the stats from the original caster, as you would expect.

DS may work in exactly the same way, just with the cast itself being delayed.

And no that wouldn't be particularly overpowered.

---------- Post added 2010-07-16 at 09:06 AM ----------

I believe DS will place a debuff on the target, so it shouldn't be stealable. Maybe the spell you copied will be a magical buff on yourself after you copy, though?

[Malthanis]

@rabbimojo:
Having some form of magical buff would imply that you could purge/dispell the copy. It seems like that would gimp the ability far too much.

[rabbimojo]

I agree. However, with Blizz talking about strategic dispels, that may be something we have to suffer anyways.
Personally, if it's on such a long cooldown /and/ is dispellable, something's gotta give.

Considering the wild difference in cooldown between spell reflect and DS, yeah... Not sure.

[Malthanis]

Well, I suppose the CD difference between DS and Spell Reflect is primarily due to the fact that you can control the target of your spell copy.

An example that just came to me:
A mage with the armor talent that can reflect spells (don't play a mage, so I'm not sure of the talent) Pyroblasts a warrior with SR up. Spell bounces back to the mage, but then bounces right back to the warrior. A DK would be able to avoid that by hanging on to the spell and using it on someone else.

[Vitorog]

Come back when you get immune to envenom

[VoltaireWrites]

How exactly do you know what they intended for Death Knights? What you are saying comes off as a 'Well its a hero class why aren't we better than everyone.' DKs were brought in line with other classes.

I can't say for sure what they intended, but the original 6-8k Icy Touches probably wasn't it. And now the simple support we can provide is fine and all. But honestly, how much sense does it really make for Blizzard to implement a new class for it to just be a "helper" in PvP. I mean we're the only class that uses two resources and the only class to be able to PvP(low rating), DPS, or Tank(low level content) as any spec. It doesn't make any sense for Blizzard to throw all of our new mechanics in expecting for us to be used as the guy who Death Grips the healer into bladestorm.

[Pantelija]

The Death Knight was originally agreed upon as the most OP class in game. As patch after patch nerfed us into the ground, we became a support class in Arena.
It will be a good day to be a DK when Cataclysm is finally released.

Nerfed into the ground ? Blizzard finally balanced DKs and u say Nerfed into the ground ? o.O
It will be a good day to be a DK when Cataclysm is finally released.
Translation : I am a FOTM reroller and cant wait for S5 season v 2.0 ( thats how this sounds to me )

[Torne]

I already see the pro mages sheeping a dk with full hp and himself to benefit from the sheep heal.

OT: The real question is: Will the DK also mimic heals cast by the target?

"Places a dark ward on an enemy that persists for 8 sec, triggering when the enemy next spends mana on a single-target spell, and allowing the Death Knight to unleash an exact duplicate of that spell. Against nonplayers, only absorbs some harmful spells."

this could also mean that the DK will mimic heals.would be pretty damn interesting.

[Malthanis]

I can't say for sure what they intended, but the original 6-8k Icy Touches probably wasn't it. And now the simple support we can provide is fine and all. But honestly, how much sense does it really make for Blizzard to implement a new class for it to just be a "helper" in PvP. I mean we're the only class that uses two resources and the only class to be able to PvP(low rating), DPS, or Tank(low level content) as any spec. It doesn't make any sense for Blizzard to throw all of our new mechanics in expecting for us to be used as the guy who Death Grips the healer into bladestorm.

The entirety of your post suggests that you really don't explore the intricacies of your class that much. Granted, I wasn't a fan of when DKs could go from 10% to 100% with a Death Strike crit, but they're far more balanced now. You're only as useful as you let yourself be, so what's that say about your attitude towards your character?

[VoltaireWrites]

Nerfed into the ground ? Blizzard finally balanced DKs and u say Nerfed into the ground ? o.O
It will be a good day to be a DK when Cataclysm is finally released.
Translation : I am a FOTM reroller and cant wait for S5 season v 2.0 ( thats how this sounds to me )

You can talk about balance all you want but that fact of the matter is Death Knight burst is not what it should be. You look at other melee class burst vs. ours and there is no comparison. I mean honestly it takes me a DBW Taunka Form Proc with my Gargoyle to get some decent burst on most healers. I mean I can take down a Disc priest just fine, and our interrupts almost make up for our lack in burst. Maybe "Nerfed into the ground" was an overstatement. However our burst needs work. Outbreak will for sure help with that. On another note, Necrotic Strike will make our burst much less mandatory. I wonder if Necrotic Strike(not a true MS, but absorbs healing) will also work with a regular MS? Can both debuffs be on the target?

[Pantelija]

You can talk about balance all you want but that fact of the matter is Death Knight burst is not what it should be. You look at other melee class burst vs. ours and there is no comparison. I mean honestly it takes me a DBW Taunka Form Proc with my Gargoyle to get some decent burst on most healers. I mean I can take down a Disc priest just fine, and our interrupts almost make up for our lack in burst. Maybe "Nerfed into the ground" was an overstatement. However our burst needs work. Outbreak will for sure help with that. On another note, Necrotic Strike will make our burst much less mandatory. I wonder if Necrotic Strike(not a true MS, but absorbs healing) will also work with a regular MS? Can both debuffs be on the target?

U dont have burst u had in S6 but u have AMS,AMZ,Icebount F,Mind Freeze,Death Pact,Ghoul Stun etc etc
Do u think it would be fair or balanced if u had shit loads of burst and all that stuff ?
I would rather have all those tools than mindless burst . Why ?
Burst is predictable while stuff like Mind Freeze,Death Pact,AMS,Icebound helps u prevail against your enemy

If u want more burst than some tools must go away u cant have both becase as i said it it just isnt fair and balanced

[VoltaireWrites]

U dont have burst u had in S6 but u have AMS,AMZ,Icebount F,Mind Freeze,Death Pact,Ghoul Stun etc etc
Do u think it would be fair or balanced if u had shit loads of burst and all that stuff ?
I would rather have all those tools than mindless burst . Why ?
Burst is predictable while stuff like Mind Freeze,Death Pact,AMS,Icebound helps u prevail against your enemy

If u want more burst than some tools must go away u cant have both becase as i said it it just isnt fair and balanced

That's a good way to think about it. We are pretty phenominal defensively. Probably why we're often the last to be focused. However I read a blue about lowering Ret(and Holy) paladin defenses. I wouldn't mind holding on to some of our defense, but I would gladly trade certain defenses for more burst. But either way it's not my decision to make, is it?

Any feedback on my Necrotic Strike post above?

[Chomag7]

It's more of a delayed Spell Reflect, you just choose when and where it goes.

It's a spell reflect that allows the spell to hit before it gets sent back.

The warrior's Spell Reflection doesn't allow the spell to hit the warrior but Dark Simulacrum does.

---------- Post added 2010-07-16 at 09:15 PM ----------

Dks only work well in 2 comps in 3v3.

2v2 is bad as they don't have burst so any enemy team of dps+healer turns into a 30 min match until someone fucks up and the other team takes advantage of it.

5v5 can't even be mentioned as it's an utter zerg where anything works.

As OP as they might seem in 1v1 and bgs, dks NEED buffs cause they aren't really an arena killer and Blizzard balances pvp around the arena.

[VoltaireWrites]

---------- Post added 2010-07-16 at 09:15 PM ----------

[/COLOR]Dks only work well in 2 comps in 3v3.

2v2 is bad as they don't have burst so any enemy team of dps+healer turns into a 30 min match until someone fucks up and the other team takes advantage of it.

5v5 can't even be mentioned as it's an utter zerg where anything works.

As OP as they might seem in 1v1 and bgs, dks NEED buffs cause they aren't really an arena killer and Blizzard balances pvp around the arena.

Precisely. Then you check over on rogues who can literally go with any class in Arena. Maybe not break into 2.2k Rating, but easily 1700-1800 as Rogue/???. I would love to see some more Death Knight utility in Arena, and it looks like Cataclysm will bring just that. And for those who called me a "FOTM reroller", I play successfully in Arena every season. I just dislike our current role, that's all.