Ret Pally's able to cleanse magic?

[pomop]

nuff said, lol. Please, if a mage can't kite a ret paladin then he is fucking horrible. Make that any class.

Uh... Yeah they can kite any class. And except maybe a rogue or DK, ret pallies are the best counter to them.

Why did you even bring this up?

From posts below I've found that ret is not that great of a counter to mages. My bad, nothing to see here.

[damntree]

Uh... Yeah they can kite any class. And except maybe a rogue or DK, ret pallies are the best counter to them.

Why did you even bring this up?

So, you think a ret pally is a counter to a mage? Now I see you're trolling, makes sense. Also, I meant any class can kite a ret paladin easily.

[milkshake619]

So, you think a ret pally is a counter to a mage? Now I see you're trolling, makes sense. Also, I meant any class can kite a ret paladin easily.

explain?

[pomop]

So, you think a ret pally is a counter to a mage? Now I see you're trolling, makes sense. Also, I meant any class can kite a ret paladin easily.

Awesome. Way to call me a troll. Reread what I said and use your brain please.

Uh... Yeah they can kite any class. And except maybe a rogue or DK, ret pallies are the best counter to them.

except maybe a rogue or DK, ret pallies are the best counter to them.

ret pallies are the best counter to them.

I never said they were their true counter. I said out of the melee classes, (Except maybe rogue or DK) they were the best counter against them. I also never specified melee, but when you talk about kiting, it's always about melee.

How does a warrior kite a paladin?
How does a priest kite a paladin?
How does a Shaman kite a paladin?

Use the tools at your disposal. You have them for a reason.

[larcom]

I said I did. (Well, HoF + 15% speed + 100% speed cap judge). Although each one is better in different situations. Vs a frost mage, pallys should have the upper hand against a warrior. Warriors have no stuns, (Charge stun amirite) 2 charges on 20 second-ish cooldowns and that's it. (Spell reflect, but not really utility) Keep in mind you cannot charge from a holding effect such as Frost nova or Ent. Roots.

Ret would just judge, asdf rotation, *nova*, Hand of freedom, repent and attack, *blink*, HoJ. Etc.

Against a warlock, I'd say warrior is more effective with mobility.

And as said above, it's cataclysm. You can't judge cataclysm changes in a wotlk setting. That's like saying "WTF A MUSKET IS SO OP IN THE YEAR 400! WTF GOD NERF!" and God says "Yeah, a musket made in the 1600s. L2P."

im just saying, if you think that works, youve never faced a good mage. imo a warrior has a better chance vs mage any day. I know that most mages love seeing rets. oh freedom? SS. repent? trink. hoj? blink. nuke nuke nuke nuke. bubble? invis, run off eat, rinse repeat. so easy.

as a warrior, spell reflect is so much more vital than people make it out to be. against a mage, you basically have to fight him snb the entire time. but eventually, you can win.

plus everytime a mage roots you as a warr, you get your second wind procs, constantly getting healed. If HoF was could not be dispelled i would possibly want it over charge/intercept. But its so easy to kite rets is ridiculous.

[Kleins]

Now that I could agree with.

I hope the class gains some complexity and drives a lot of the FOTM away.

They're trying to make the class more complex, and ever since 3.0 Pally's have been FOTM spawning everywhere! Maybe adding some skill will scare them away and make them roll a new FOTM whichever it'd be at the time of Catty launch.

---------- Post added 2010-07-19 at 07:34 AM ----------

Awesome. Way to call me a troll. Reread what I said and use your brain please.


I never said they were their true counter. I said out of the melee classes, (Except maybe rogue or DK) they were the best counter against them. I also never specified melee, but when you talk about kiting, it's always about melee.

How does a warrior kite a paladin?
How does a priest kite a paladin?
How does a Shaman kite a paladin?

Use the tools at your disposal. You have them for a reason.

A good Rogue or DK can make the average Ret Pally look like a little girl if they use their skills to their advantage.

[larcom]

a ret pali is in no way shape or form even close to a counter for a mage, honestly probably the easiest class for a mage to beat...

[pomop]

im just saying, if you think that works, youve never faced a good mage. imo a warrior has a better chance vs mage any day. I know that most mages love seeing rets. oh freedom? SS. repent? trink. hoj? blink. nuke nuke nuke nuke. bubble? invis, run off eat, rinse repeat. so easy.

as a warrior, spell reflect is so much more vital than people make it out to be. against a mage, you basically have to fight him snb the entire time. but eventually, you can win.

plus everytime a mage roots you as a warr, you get your second wind procs, constantly getting healed. If HoF was could not be dispelled i would possibly want it over charge/intercept. But its so easy to kite rets is ridiculous.

Good points. Just need to remember that it's all in the scenario and in the hands of the player. Take your example of the paladin against a mage. What if his trinket was already used on a blind or something of that nature? What if the paladins HoF was used on his partner? The rest of the variables change.

Like I said though, good points on a 1v1 scenario. Also remember a cancel aura macro to cancel HoF when fighting a mage. It's incredibly helpful.

---------- Post added 2010-07-19 at 07:37 AM ----------

A good Rogue or DK can make the average Ret Pally look like a little girl if they use their skills to their advantage.

As I thought, I thought they had an advantage over ret, but I wasn't too sure about it. Looks like I was wrong.

[Torais]

Am I missing something or are these guys not getting that HoF has a cd whereas the chill effect from a spell like frostbolt does not, so good luck trying to use your judgement to slow a mage that can blink frostbolt repeat.

Blink + Frostbolt isn't the problem. It's Blink + Frostbolt + CoC + Frost Nova + Deep Freeze + Imp. Blizzard + Freeze + Deep Freeze + Ice Armor + Shattered Barrier. You can also add Curtain of Frost to that already comically huge list come Cataclysm too.

Now this problem is not a Paladin one. It's just Paladins will have to deal with it along with the rest of us and likely be in a pretty tight spot without magical cleansing unless they get some uber abilities. Could go either way as Re.t seems to flip-flop between "Borderline Cheating" and "Completely Useless" in terms of power with no real happy medium.

[Kleins]

Blink + Frostbolt isn't the problem. It's Blink + Frostbolt + CoC + Frost Nova + Deep Freeze + Imp. Blizzard + Freeze + Deep Freeze + Ice Armor + Shattered Barrier. You can also add Curtain of Frost to that already comically huge list come Cataclysm too.

Now this problem is not a Paladin one. It's just Paladins will have to deal with it along with the rest of us and likely be in a pretty tight spot without magical cleansing unless they get some uber abilities. Could go either way as Re.t seems to flip-flop between "Borderline Cheating" and "Completely Useless" in terms of power with no real happy medium.

We've ate our way out of a pile a shit to then delicious cake that made us demigods and now the skies are showering us with crap again. Oh wells, Catty isn't out yet but we've got our right to be concerned

[pomop]

Here we have the retardin pvp mantra folks.

To be fair though... Frost has retarded amounts of control for the damage they can put out.

[Tigercat]

To be fair though... Frost has retarded amounts of control for the damage they can put out.

I agree completely. However, it's something every melee class has to deal with, so acting like it's a ret-only concern is a bit myopic.

[Kleins]

To be fair though... Frost has retarded amounts of control for the damage they can put out.

Thank you for the support. And I'm not trying to say RET SHOUDL BEET ERAYTHANG! There's always a counter to a class but I feel that the more skilled player of the two regardless of class can overcome the other to an extent. On my Resto Sham and Disc Priest I can kill just about anything that is thrown up against me, only because I know my class mechanics and how to use them against my opponents. I'm not saying nothing can beat me but I can at least put me foot in the ground.

[milkshake619]

I agree completely. However, it's something every melee class has to deal with, so acting like it's a ret-only concern is a bit myopic.

im gonna enjoy fighting mages and locks with my dk. dark simulacrum will be fun. that or bouncing back a lava burst / conflag crit. giggity

[Kleins]

I agree completely. However, it's something every melee class has to deal with, so acting like it's a ret-only concern is a bit myopic.

I was never trying to revolve every discussion on this thread towards a Ret Pally seeing a few times we have gone off trail and that's completely okay. Mages have been known to kite all classes in general and I know that but some have different ways to counter it, Pally's for one use cleanse because we all know any good Mage would SS a HoF before it would even matter.

[rabbimojo]

I agree completely. However, it's something every melee class has to deal with, so acting like it's a ret-only concern is a bit myopic.

What you quoted didn't seem like it was trying to say it's a ret-only concern. Just that whereas others are countered, Kleins felt ret are going to be hard-countered by frost, come Cata.

Or maybe I just read right past the text and came up with my own meaning.

[Vellin]

I heard that GC said CC's will be changed in Cata.

[Fichek]

I agree completely. However, it's something every melee class has to deal with, so acting like it's a ret-only concern is a bit myopic.

You are completely right, every melee class has to deal with it but the difference is the tools at their disposal to do so!

Warr - Charge, intercept, bladestorm and heroic leap in cata + hamstring. That means the moment you stop being frozen, you are already on your target and hamstring is on it instantly. As much as he slows you, he is slowed as well. So many tools at your disposal. Oh, i forgot intervene as well.

DK - CoI, death grip, desecration.. Whats more to say here..

Rogue - Muti have it a bit harder but with clos, vanish, prep, poisons they get on fine.

Ret - Freedom, self dispels. Freedom is spellstolen instantly by any decent mage since you are usually buffless when fighting mages. So for the next 20 something seconds, you are constantly kited. You can't dispel all the chills from you so you have to wait for your next freedom just so it can be spellstolen again. Repentance you say? You dmg him out of it, he continues kiting you. Repentance + hoj. He blinks from hoj. Keeps on kiting you. Don't even dare mention Judgement of Justice. All it does is makes your target move normal speed. So moving normal speed is a snare now? That will certainly help much when everything is moving 50% faster than you are Plus you need to be 10y or less to even use it.

I could continue, but i don't really see the point. 2.5% is ret representation in arena. That's kinda low considering how "faceroll" ret is, don't you think. Funny thing is, all the people saying ret is easy to play don't have one, haven't played arena or a decent bg, have never passed 1500 rating on any of their chars (or they would see for themselves how easy to deal with ret is), and are mostly using their anus for talking.

[Deleted]

except that many classes lose their stuff, like warlock loses 70% snare from aftermath

[zcks]

They have said several times in the last year they want to work toward getting rid of hard counters.
So far we have seen all ranged classes get more ways to kite & CC.
What has ret got?
1 It has lost cleanse our main way to counter CC and kiting when HOF was on CD
2 we have been told that health pools will skyrocket while our healing potential will lessen dramatically from what it is now.
3 There has been no word on weather or not our interrupt will require melee range.
4 To top all this off the way our new attack system will work is similar to rouges in that we must use other weaker attacks to power it up for a finisher melee attack.

Taking all these changes into account and the fact our up front burst is going bye bye for a system that requires we stay in melee to finish opponents we will be screwed in pvp unless we get an actual way to get into melee range & stay there. They said they wanted us to focus allot more on offense and allot less on healing potential so lets hope to god they finally keep their word because there are plenty on simple changes they could do to do it.

Like say changing the joke that is pursuit of justice to instead give hand of freedom a 50-100% dispel resistance and provide a 15-30 or 20-40% run speed buff when cast on yourself, and possibly change seal of justice from the RNG stun (they want to get rid of rng anyway) into a seal that causes half the damage of seal of righteousness but slightly snares the target (say 25-30%) which would make us chose between more burst or more control.

These would still not be nearly as good as an instant gap closer like charge/death grip because we would still have to actually run to the target which leaves us vulnerable to polymorph, fear, knockbacks, and concussive shot etc... but they would be a fair trade off since we will be only slightly more defensive then arms/fury or death knight dps specs in cataclysm.