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  1. #1

    The time has come.... for Sleep

    No, really.

    Hear me out.

    (think of one of those movie trailer announcer guys while reading this)

    In a world...

    Where every class and their dog's mother's kitchen sink has crowd control...

    One class...

    Is left alone...

    okay no really what if shadow got Sleep, like priests had in the classic beta, except deep in the shadow tree?

    At its strongest it could be a straight up spammable CC to rival even Sheep. At its weakest it could be more like Repentence.

    Before you cry nerf, there's plenty that can be done to make it balanced and fine. Make it share DR with fear, take away our Psychic Horror or Mind Control or something else.

    I'm not actually interested in discussing the balance issues of it quite yet, because yes I realize that at this point in Wrath it would push shadow way, way over the edge of reasonable power, but this is Cataclysm we're talking about, where the entire game is changing, and things are likely to be completely different.

    Consider that, in Cataclysm, a single Balance druid will be able to silence a HUGE cluster of enemy casters for a full 10 seconds or until they get out of the beam (which still takes a few seconds). Consider the immense, dramatic effect that one Balance druid can have in a rated BG, and tell me you doubt that the balance of things is not shifting wildly enough to think about introducing big new mechanics like this.

    The balance of Shadow having strong ranged single target CC in Cata is so highly debatable that, for right now, I'd rather just explore what other people think about whether it fits or not.

    So here's what excites me about the idea:

    1. It's unique. No other class has any kind of sleep ability that's usable on humanoids, except Wyvern Sting, and that's different enough not to seem like a ripped-off ability at all.

    2. It fits in with the class lore. Priests - and shadowpriests in particular - are the wielders of psychic and mind powers. It makes sense for us to be able to put people to sleep. Call it Shadow/Power Word: Sleep if you want to, though just Sleep would also suffice. AND, priests have actually already had it, once upon a time, so that makes even more sense.

    3. It adds something truly new to the spec. Shadowpriests justifiably complain that we have played exactly the same since Classic. Fear, PWS, dots, Silence, Mind Blast, Mind Flay. Now and then we get something new that doesn't really change much. After five years we have a total of three new toys, none of which alters the playstyle significantly - Vampiric Touch (just a new dot), Dispersion (unique and solid defensive cooldown), and Psychic Horror (pretty neat long cooldown short duration lockdown ala death coil).

    Other classes change dramatically from expansion to expansion, each getting a whole pile of neat new toys to play with. I won't list any unless I have to, because I don't want to look like a spoiled kid who only got two toys while Billy got three, but I doubt any other spriests will disagree with me on this point: I would really love to get something truly new and interesting.

    Ok, I am now ready for your flaming. You may proceed.
    Last edited by Annesh; 2010-07-26 at 08:07 AM.

  2. #2

  3. #3
    Herald of the Titans BHD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by avprox777 View Post
    Sleep has already been in the game before.

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Sleep_%28mage_spell%29
    Quote Originally Posted by Annesh View Post
    what if shadow got Sleep, like priests had in the classic beta, except deep in the shadow tree?
    Fail at reading?

    OT: Don't really know that much about about priests except that I HATE dueling them. But I do think that every class should have a CC, maybe not baseline for the class, but just like you said, as a shadow talent. It was pure hell getting a group to mgt hc back in TBC as a fury warrior, simply because I couldn't provide a CC. And now that we are getting CC back in the game, why not give it to more classes?
    I'm sure Blizzard could balance shadow priests around it, I wouldn't mind waiting a few weeks longer for a better game.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by avprox777 View Post
    Sleep has already been in the game before.

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Sleep_%28mage_spell%29
    oops i forgot to mention i already knew this so that oh-so-clever nerds couldn't call me out on it.

    oh wait i did mention it, and you just didn't read my wall of text

    troll harder

  5. #5
    Problem is that if shadow keeps the burst it does today, giving them some form of CC besides fear/horror/disarm and snare breakage might make them slightly op :P

    edited for half an hour then somehow lost everything.

    Anyway the point was that the changes to CC in Cata make this even more OP than it would be in the current situation. You would have an extra CC not sharing DR with the rest of your CCs - you have silence, fears and disarms and you would get a sleep as well... while keeping dots and slow ( which people will likely not dispell anymore since dispells are not going to be a thing you spam).

    Also - why even post something if you do not want balance issues to be brought up? So that bad SPs can say "oh yeah we totally need more CC in pvp" or so that people can say "Mmm yea.. a good idea..." ? I though that was the point of sharing ideas - have them discussed.

    If you want SPs to get "new" abilities - then beside the fact that you already got a slight boost in pvp by getting a not shadow only spell that can be school locked - you should probably propose more of a "burst" long-ish cooldown, since imo this is the only thing SPs miss at the moment.
    Last edited by Dianthe; 2010-07-26 at 11:14 AM.

  6. #6
    by saying "i'm not interested in balance issues right now" what i mean is that i think they don't matter because they can be ironed out. i'm not interested in being op or stomping around owning everyone in my path. that's not good for the game, and imposes the threat of being overnerfed, which no one wants.

    when considering sleep you need to realize that the game you're playing now is profoundly different from the one you'll be playing in cata, whether or not shadow gets anything decent, so please try not to think of it in terms of relative power, but in terms of how neat it would be to be a shadowpriest, AND a class with actual cc

  7. #7
    I'm gonna say it now, Shadow does NOT need any form of CC other than Fear. If you had THAT CC it would make it alot easier for the Priest 1v1 to Sleep target > pop out of Shadowform > heal > pop back in. It would be overpowered, enough said. Cry all you want that it would be fair, fun. Call me a troll because you think I don't know what I'm talking about or didn't read your post. I did read your post, doesn't make it any less overpowered. Also, to be perfectly honest, it's not interesting. You're also forgetting that the classes that change dramatically needed said change and that Priests have changed as much as most of the other classes have. The ONLY classes that anyone can say have really changed alot from expansion to expansion are Paladin, and Druids which require the dramatic changes because of how hard it is to balance 3, or 4 spec's in the Druid's case, at max level. Lastly, the things you want to trade off for it are not worth the CC. MC is, basically, worthless for the most part and Psychic Horror, as completely unneeded as it is, is also not really worth a CD like that.

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Mandible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badhairday View Post
    Fail at reading?

    OT: Don't really know that much about about priests except that I HATE dueling them. But I do think that every class should have a CC, maybe not baseline for the class, but just like you said, as a shadow talent. It was pure hell getting a group to mgt hc back in TBC as a fury warrior, simply because I couldn't provide a CC. And now that we are getting CC back in the game, why not give it to more classes?
    I'm sure Blizzard could balance shadow priests around it, I wouldn't mind waiting a few weeks longer for a better game.
    Actually with all the ccíng claimed to be needed in 5 man instances as well now all classes should have some sort of cc - even with 5 in the group there are odds you would miss out on it in a random group.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    If you had THAT CC it would make it alot easier for the Priest 1v1 to Sleep target > pop out of Shadowform > heal > pop back in.
    i seem to recall people saying that about hex, cyclone, repentance, and then of course paladins of all specs have been doing that with hammer for years

    It would be overpowered, enough said. Cry all you want that it would be fair, fun. Call me a troll because you think I don't know what I'm talking about or didn't read your post. I did read your post, doesn't make it any less overpowered.
    okay, you read my post. but you're still thinking of it in terms of the game now.

    along the same vein of thought i could easily say something like "Paladins with a 60% sprint for 10 seconds every 30 seconds is F*CKING OVERPOWERED" but paladins actually are getting that in cata, and my assumption is that it will be fair and balanced in the finished cataclysm product.

    and that's not all - i could rattle off half a dozen announced cata changes that, when taken in the context of the current wotlk game balance, would absolutely break the game. and people are complaining about them. like the shadowflame change, how imba is that?

    so how is this any different? the game is dramatically changing. why can't we change too?

    Also, to be perfectly honest, it's not interesting.
    says you.

    You're also forgetting that the classes that change dramatically needed said change and that Priests have changed as much as most of the other classes have. The ONLY classes that anyone can say have really changed alot from expansion to expansion are Paladin, and Druids which require the dramatic changes because of how hard it is to balance 3, or 4 spec's in the Druid's case, at max level.
    this makes little or no sense to me. on what basis are you claiming that paladins and druids require big changes? the fact that they can perform 3-4 different roles depending on spec? why does that necessitate more change than any other class?

    Lastly, the things you want to trade off for it are not worth the CC. MC is, basically, worthless for the most part and Psychic Horror, as completely unneeded as it is, is also not really worth a CD like that.
    you're still thinking of it in terms of wotlk game balance. cataclysm is a big abyssal void, a whirlpool from which we can't possibly derive any sense or solidarity. we honestly have absolutely no idea what it will be like, which classes will be powerful, which will be garbage, what abilities will end up needing the nerfbat. everything is changing.

    so why not make a mental copy of the cataclysm whirlpool for our own experimentatal consideration, throw a shadowpriest cc into the mixture, and contemplate how it would work out?

    that's what i'm doing. and i'd like other spriests to help out, because no work of art was ever created alone.

  10. #10
    Deleted
    can't really miss out on groups since you'll most likely join via the dungeon finder.

    And CC may be "helpful" on pulls, but not game breaking, and if you can't get past these pulls it's because your tank/dps/healer isn't good enough, as opposed to today's instances where you can't possibly fail.

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer Ultima's Avatar
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    Hm. From a Healer PvP perspective;

    Druids - Cyclone (they don't need to worry about leaving Tree Form anymore) + Entangling Roots
    Shamans - Hex + Earthbind Totem
    Paladins - Hammer de Justice and Divine Shield (I need to see what they do with DS though)
    Priests - Psychic Scream

    Druids have a Spammable (3 times before DR = immune?) and a snare.
    Shamans have arguably the best "sheep" and have a good escape plan (Totem -> Ghost Wolf)
    Paladins have a stun and an immunity bubble.
    Priests have a 30s fear which fears a target for 10 seconds which is easily dealt with (especially by Warriors, or Rogues who CloS and DKs who AMS).

    I'm obviously biased here, but I do see Priests and Paladins as the weakest in this area.

  12. #12
    I am Murloc! Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annesh View Post
    oops i forgot to mention i already knew this so that oh-so-clever nerds couldn't call me out on it.

    oh wait i did mention it, and you just didn't read my wall of text

    troll harder
    Trolling?
    LOL. I know it's not in the dictionary but come on.

    No, it was not trolling. However I don't want the thread to be hung up on these two posts, so can the following posts ignore it and discuss the actual topic. - Ultima
    Last edited by Ultima; 2010-07-26 at 12:58 PM.
    You can tell WoW changed the MMO for good when players started complaining about the amount of time they sink, into a time sink.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima View Post
    Hm. From a Healer PvP perspective;

    Druids - Cyclone (they don't need to worry about leaving Tree Form anymore) + Entangling Roots
    Shamans - Hex + Earthbind Totem
    Paladins - Hammer de Justice and Divine Shield (I need to see what they do with DS though)
    Priests - Psychic Scream

    Druids have a Spammable (3 times before DR = immune?) and a snare.
    Shamans have arguably the best "sheep" and have a good escape plan (Totem -> Ghost Wolf)
    Paladins have a stun and an immunity bubble.
    Priests have a 30s fear which fears a target for 10 seconds which is easily dealt with (especially by Warriors, or Rogues who CloS and DKs who AMS).

    I'm obviously biased here, but I do see Priests and Paladins as the weakest in this area.
    Neither of those classes can burn the other healer / dpses mana though. Nor do they have bubbles that allow them to cast as much as they want without being interruped. Admitedly in the case of druids most of their spells are hots, but catch them without anything on and there's little to nothing they can do. You can shackle DK's gargoyle CD- and most of all you can kill stuff because you do more damage than any other healer and you will still do come Cata - even more actually.

    And this is from a healer's PoV only. SPs can also silence, disarm and break snares, besides slowing their targets with MF.

    As for the QQ about lack of CC in instances, shackle is a viable CC and there are plenty of undead mobs around to shackle...

    You might not have as much CC but you make up for it through other skills. Also Paladins have AM too... :P

  14. #14
    I liked it back in TBC when you ran a heroic with some group that perhaps didn't have the greatest CC, and you had to stop to think "now how the heck do we do this pull with just a sap?" Of course, then multi-tanking came along and ruined the whole 5-man experience. In Cataclysm, unless trash-mobs get back the mind-controls, disarms, mortal strikes and mass-fears they had plenty of in TBC, we'll have to guess "do we need to use CC, or is the tank and healer geared enough to just deal with it?". All that sounds like to me is that people won't want to do heroics with low-geared tanks and healers quite soon into the expansion ("lol, screw this, I'd have to use SHEEPS with this group"). I can only hope that Cataclysm will prove me wrong.

  15. #15
    LOL i remember tbc heroics, good times.

    but i'm actually not advocating sleep for pve purposes, because i like shackle's niche there.

    and i do realize now how having two long duration cc's usable on different kinds of mobs might be weird and imba for pve cc, but maybe it could be the same spell or something

  16. #16
    Mind Control is a pretty interesting CC, and some variance between the different CC's is a good thing. Adding a new CC for priests that is just like every other CC is a bad idea, and it will kill Mind Control. You don't need Sleep. If a CC situation comes along you should be thinking how best to use your group to deal with it, not just give everyone a target and say "use your generic CC on X". I know MC isn't a great CC, but its different and you should embrace it.

    ---------- Post added 2010-07-26 at 02:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Annesh View Post
    but i'm actually not advocating sleep for pve purposes, because i like shackle's niche there.
    I'm afraid that is how the populace would use it.

    Also I imagine 1 on 1 with a priest that has you fully dotted and then CC'd would suck.

  17. #17
    Mechagnome _Khasim_'s Avatar
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    When I was playing as my priest in TBC I MC'ed one mob of a trash pack and had the others WTFPWN it while the party was waiting to deal with the rest.
    PvE-wise, priest CC is fine, and they also have Shackle Undead, which is AFAIK unique (ah, Moroes times...)
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  18. #18
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    just let us use our opponents abilitys during mindcontrol and i would be happy

    ---------- Post added 2010-07-26 at 01:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by _Khasim_ View Post
    When I was playing as my priest in TBC I MC'ed one mob of a trash pack and had the others WTFPWN it while the party was waiting to deal with the rest.
    PvE-wise, priest CC is fine, and they also have Shackle Undead, which is AFAIK unique (ah, Moroes times...)
    was awesome in zul aman playing with those fire caster trolls^^

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Annesh View Post
    No, really.

    Hear me out.

    (think of one of those movie trailer announcer guys while reading this)

    In a world...

    Where every class and their dog's mother's kitchen sink has crowd control...

    One class...

    Is left alone...

    okay no really what if shadow got Sleep, like priests had in the classic beta, except deep in the shadow tree?

    At its strongest it could be a straight up spammable CC to rival even Sheep. At its weakest it could be more like Repentence.

    Before you cry nerf, there's plenty that can be done to make it balanced and fine. Make it share DR with fear, take away our Psychic Horror or Mind Control or something else.

    I'm not actually interested in discussing the balance issues of it quite yet, because yes I realize that at this point in Wrath it would push shadow way, way over the edge of reasonable power, but this is Cataclysm we're talking about, where the entire game is changing, and things are likely to be completely different.

    Consider that, in Cataclysm, a single Balance druid will be able to silence a HUGE cluster of enemy casters for a full 10 seconds or until they get out of the beam (which still takes a few seconds). Consider the immense, dramatic effect that one Balance druid can have in a rated BG, and tell me you doubt that the balance of things is not shifting wildly enough to think about introducing big new mechanics like this.

    The balance of Shadow having strong ranged single target CC in Cata is so highly debatable that, for right now, I'd rather just explore what other people think about whether it fits or not.

    So here's what excites me about the idea:

    1. It's unique. No other class has any kind of sleep ability that's usable on humanoids, except Wyvern Sting, and that's different enough not to seem like a ripped-off ability at all.

    2. It fits in with the class lore. Priests - and shadowpriests in particular - are the wielders of psychic and mind powers. It makes sense for us to be able to put people to sleep. Call it Shadow/Power Word: Sleep if you want to, though just Sleep would also suffice. AND, priests have actually already had it, once upon a time, so that makes even more sense.

    3. It adds something truly new to the spec. Shadowpriests justifiably complain that we have played exactly the same since Classic. Fear, PWS, dots, Silence, Mind Blast, Mind Flay. Now and then we get something new that doesn't really change much. After five years we have a total of three new toys, none of which alters the playstyle significantly - Vampiric Touch (just a new dot), Dispersion (unique and solid defensive cooldown), and Psychic Horror (pretty neat long cooldown short duration lockdown ala death coil).

    Other classes change dramatically from expansion to expansion, each getting a whole pile of neat new toys to play with. I won't list any unless I have to, because I don't want to look like a spoiled kid who only got two toys while Billy got three, but I doubt any other spriests will disagree with me on this point: I would really love to get something truly new and interesting.

    Ok, I am now ready for your flaming. You may proceed.
    maybe because its a pure healer class and not a hybrid yet they do some of the highest dmg of any class and i got cc locked and nuked to death with 1224 resilliance from 100%-0% in the space of 10 seconds

    stfu please priest cc is fine.

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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by terrorlord15 View Post
    maybe because its a pure healer class and not a hybrid yet they do some of the highest dmg of any class and i got cc locked and nuked to death with 1224 resilliance from 100%-0% in the space of 10 seconds

    stfu please priest cc is fine.
    If it's got a healing and a dps spec it's not a pure healing class. There's no pure healing class in this game.

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