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  1. #41
    Scarab Lord Stanton Biston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bûllshift View Post
    JOHN FUCKING MADDEN
    This one time my guild told me to cat is up for the weekend a while back on a Friday because they were trying out a new tank. Long story short: I woke up the following Tuesday, having topped DPS, but also strung out on energy drinks and a white powdery residue around my nose I can only assume was coke.

    Feral DPS isn't complicated.

    It's JOHN FUCKING MADDEN.

    Last edited by Stanton Biston; 2010-08-26 at 06:35 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Badpaladin View Post
    Some people still rank here and there without it. Actually I think some of Bluedeep's 2 month-old parses are still top 10(tribute to skill>gear, right?), but yeah. Swoelol is up there quite a bit without Smourne and Requital was ranking quite a few times before getting his, but other than that....rest are likely Smourne because they don't have the raid DPS of Adept nor Exodus. My only issue is that it's balancing this comparison around the fact that 2H melee have a legendary. Although it's pretty common for some guilds, it's not for others. In fact my guild only has 3 and exodus is ranked us #6th.
    2 month-old parses in Top10? That was a joke, right? Good one, I almost laughed.
    By tibute to skill you mean tribute to AhK? Yeah, too bad everyone and their mom is using it now.

    There is no Bluedeep at Top200. No Swoelol. There is two Requital parses, both with Smourne, at #90 Festergut and #150 Saurfang. I've checked Rotface too.
    If you can find me one parse there without Smourne - I'll gladly look into it, because it have to be something really special.

    You just underestimating competition there. I was able to rank once, with 17.3k eDPS at Festergut, which was an exceptional result for my gear and our horrible raid-wide. It's already pushed down from Top200 anyway.

    I guess my point is all comparisons will be skewed around this fact. Even the top 200 comparisons are skewed as hell, because they all put the other classes on the same playing field as legendary users and use that as a basis for comparison. Not to downplay the comparison, especially since I'd easily take anything over what wow.com does for their "comparison", but it's only really accurate for the 2H melee users if they have Smourne. I can't look at a comparison like this and say, "well dammit I'm 2k under the average....wow, I must be really under performing!".
    1. Sadly, we can't do separate "no-Smourne" comparison, since Top200 for 2H meleers already filled with it, we just don't have data anymore.
    2. Without Smourne 2H would be near the bottom of the chart, except Fury. Fair or not? Everyone have his own opinion here.

  3. #43
    You must be part of the "I've never used AutoHotkey so it's automatically the highest DPS-increasing tool in the world ban ban ban" club. Tip: it's not that big of a DPS increase, even if you use the Divine Storm automation script. Functionally speaking, it's only about 100 DPS higher to run a script that doesn't automate DS than regular spamming of keys, and not that much higher than that even if you "automate"(I put it in quotations because it's "stupid" script in that it doesn't guarantee automation) because we're not so heavily punished with a fuckup than say, a Feral Druid.

    Apologies, I have to make the addendum that I measure US against US, Euro against Euro, Korean against Korean, etc. Reason being is the average speed of players' connections in the US is around 5MBPS, Korea is around 46MBPS, Finland is around 23MBS, etc. Now THAT is a significant DPS discrepancy. You could measure world totals, but it's not some mind-boggling occurence that there are so many more ranked Euro/KR players in ratio. Take it as you like.

    1. Sadly, we can't do separate "no-Smourne" comparison, since Top200 for 2H meleers already filled with it, we just don't have data anymore.
    2. Without Smourne 2H would be near the bottom of the chart, except Fury. Fair or not? Everyone have his own opinion here.
    That's in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure warlocks would be a lot happier though.

    Also of note, WoL has a "stupid" ranking mechanic in that it doesn't filter out players who have themselves listed in more than one "guild" with the system. Not that it would be hugely significant, but it's something you may want to consider.

    I was able to rank once, with 17.3k eDPS at Festergut, which was an exceptional result for my gear and our horrible raid-wide. It's already pushed down from Top200 anyway.
    e

    I'll swap you. The gdkp I run consists of me being 9+% of the DPS, a frost mage and a 2H enhancement shaman. It's really amazing how terrible pugs can be.
    Last edited by Badpaladin; 2010-08-26 at 09:49 PM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Badpaladin View Post
    Apologies, I have to make the addendum that I measure US against US, Euro against Euro, Korean against Korean, etc. Reason being is the average speed of players' connections in the US is around 5MBPS, Korea is around 46MBPS, Finland is around 23MBS, etc. Now THAT is a significant DPS discrepancy. You could measure world totals, but it's not some mind-boggling occurence that there are so many more ranked Euro/KR players in ratio. Take it as you like.
    You do realise that within Europe there's some very large differences for internet connection quality ? I pay almost twice as much for my shitty 2Mbps connection than a swede does for a 100Mbps connection. I still have less than 50ms ping usually.

  5. #45
    I assume this is with the 30% damage buff therefore Fury warriors have extra inflation on their damage due to rage scaling

    Also your sample size is pretty small compared to past samples which reduces the accuracy of your chart, and gives little representation for the other specs outside of the "best" specs which makes your information faulty outside of specs we know to be better dps and not giving a true representation of other specs due to a smaller pool of people using the spec due to the guild they are in and being as competitive as that guild is

  6. #46
    High Overlord Rethir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Biston View Post
    This one time my guild told me to cat is up for the weekend a while back on a Friday because they were trying out a new tank. Long story short: I woke up the following Tuesday, having topped DPS, but also strung out on energy drinks and a white powdery residue around my nose I can only assume was coke.

    Feral DPS isn't complicated.

    It's JOHN FUCKING MADDEN.

    -snip-
    HAHAHAHAHA, Best chart ever!


  7. #47
    Deleted
    Chart was good, but I actually hoped you would have drawn lines for a 10minute perfect rotation. At a first glance it looked like it.

    Anyway, top charts are corrupt for comparing anything but top guilds, because their overall dps gets so much higher when their heroic saurfang or such fights last a minute(or more) less than average guilds.

    If you really want to take a good look at what the classes can do, take the top 200 ranks from each class and spec on each fight, and post it. I bet you would still not be 'shaken' by any results that we didn't already know. or just ask the people at WoL to implement graphs heehee.

  8. #48
    I'm not sure what you hoped to accomplish with this. While you can try to compare class dps across different encounters, the fact of the matter is some encounters favor some dps, and others favor other dps. There's really no even ground on any of them and even collecting them all isn't really a fair comparison. The only true fair comparison would be a patchwerk like encounter, which ICC doesn't have at all.

    Not to mention but, correct me if I'm wrong, warrior dps is so ridiculous not only because of their current design, but the ICC buff easily gives them infinite rage(30% more damage can end up equaling 20% more rage with titans grip, obviously not exact but you get what I mean). So using a zone to compare dps that has a zone wide buff that obviously benefits some classes more than others isn't ideal at all.
    Last edited by sicness; 2010-08-27 at 06:07 AM.

  9. #49
    @Stanton Biston: FUCKING LOL!

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by sethers656 View Post
    Actually Blizz's goal is to have the hybrid's 5-10% lower than pure dps. They have stated this multiple times. Amd although this isnt happening right now, this is their goal and has been for a while.
    that was ages ago.

    during wrath they realized how stupid their reasoning was and decided to skipp the tax.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Badpaladin View Post
    You must be part of the "I've never used AutoHotkey so it's automatically the highest DPS-increasing tool in the world ban ban ban" club.
    No, I'm a part of other club, where we know exactly what we are doing and not discussing it on public.

    Apologies, I have to make the addendum that I measure US against US, Euro against Euro, Korean against Korean, etc. Reason being is the average speed of players' connections in the US is around 5MBPS, Korea is around 46MBPS, Finland is around 23MBS, etc. Now THAT is a significant DPS discrepancy. You could measure world totals, but it's not some mind-boggling occurence that there are so many more ranked Euro/KR players in ratio. Take it as you like.
    There is no way to separate results in WoL by region. It's World Top, as I stated in the first post.
    Also, quick look at World Top10 for ICC shows that 53% occupied by US, 45% by EU and 2% by KR.
    Also, it have nothing to do with Mbps (even 5 is more than enough for WoW), it's the latency which matters, if you live close to the datacenter, whether it's KR or US, your latency will be low.
    Take it as it is.

    So, should I wait for that link to no-Smourne top parse or you already accepted that they don't exist anymore?

    That's in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure warlocks would be a lot happier though.
    Each class/role sometimes have their moment under the spotlight. I've heard next on line is legendary caster dagger, so locks have something to look forward.

    Also of note, WoL has a "stupid" ranking mechanic in that it doesn't filter out players who have themselves listed in more than one "guild" with the system. Not that it would be hugely significant, but it's something you may want to consider.
    I'm aware of that. It doesn't give any significant shift to #50 position.

    I'll swap you. The gdkp I run consists of me being 9+% of the DPS, a frost mage and a 2H enhancement shaman. It's really amazing how terrible pugs can be.
    Sigh. I carry arcane mages and people who can't break 10k. But hey, it's one night/week and we have a life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voltair View Post
    I assume this is with the 30% damage buff therefore Fury warriors have extra inflation on their damage due to rage scaling
    Also your sample size is pretty small compared to past samples which reduces the accuracy of your chart, and gives little representation for the other specs outside of the "best" specs which makes your information faulty outside of specs we know to be better dps and not giving a true representation of other specs due to a smaller pool of people using the spec due to the guild they are in and being as competitive as that guild is
    Warriors will destroy you at ToGC too (no 30% buff), unless you are Mage.

    My sample size is huge, it's Top50 parses selected from the thousands guilds using WoL on regular basis.

    No one cares about subpar specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by sicness View Post
    I'm not sure what you hoped to accomplish with this. While you can try to compare class dps across different encounters, the fact of the matter is some encounters favor some dps, and others favor other dps. There's really no even ground on any of them and even collecting them all isn't really a fair comparison. The only true fair comparison would be a patchwerk like encounter, which ICC doesn't have at all.
    You raiding Patchwerk each week? I'm not, I do ICC.

    The graph in first post shows what you can expect from your class/spec at ICC on average and table below breaks it down to different encounters. Nothing more, nothing less.

  12. #52
    Also, it have nothing to do with Mbps (even 5 is more than enough for WoW), it's the latency which matters, if you live close to the datacenter, whether it's KR or US, your latency will be low.
    Assuming nothing is running in the background, nobody other than you is connected, etc. Having a huge blanket of data transfer like what Finland or Korea has is worth tons more if you get any outside variable. Run a 25 man raid with 5 mbps and have anything else transfer significant data over your connection and you've got an issue.

    Well, here's a time I'll say you're right for once:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k...e=1296#Swoelol
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k...&e=829#Swoelol

    Both were top 50 at the time of the parse. It's been a few weeks, but there wasn't some sudden surge of hundreds of shadowmournes since then(although enough to bump them back a tad bit).

    Sigh. I carry arcane mages and people who can't break 10k. But hey, it's one night/week and we have a life.
    Hey, me too! Well. If you call 30 hr work week and 18 units a life I suppose. I'd actually be pretty interested to be on a huge server like Blackrock and assemble some "super pug" that meets once a week and see how it manages against other guilds.
    Last edited by Badpaladin; 2010-08-27 at 07:57 AM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Om1 View Post
    why would I play a warrior, druid, paladin etc, when playing a hunter is so much more fun?
    I'm just saying -Play the class you like the most because in the end blizard's goal is that all the dps-classes should be able to do equal amount of damage. no one will ever bring only 1 class because that class does more dps than all the other classes.

    Hybrid classes work just as hard to gain their gear and skill with their spec as a pure dps class do, so why should they be punished for that?
    I like you.

    Poor Kitten
    Yay Fire My hatred for Arcane is justified!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmah View Post
    You do realise that within Europe there's some very large differences for internet connection quality ? I pay almost twice as much for my shitty 2Mbps connection than a swede does for a 100Mbps connection. I still have less than 50ms ping usually.
    We Aussies, Kiwi's and the rest would like to have a word with you -_-
    Last edited by Heywes; 2010-08-27 at 08:07 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    If you can prove that all players are from Iowa, I will post about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    You don't just buy a site that works just fine with a plan to change everything, it's not worth the hassle, the only major change we could do to boost the traffic is to offer Night Elf porn to the users, and I was told I can't do that.
    If i ever have a chance to fly to France, i will do so with my only intention being to find you Boub and give you a hug for being so awesome ^_^ <3

  14. #54
    Anyways, this justifies what I've been saying always since icc came out. Arcane requires far more skill than fire. Same with boomkins and elemental shamans.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazertrooper View Post
    Anyways, this justifies what I've been saying always since icc came out. Arcane requires far more skill than fire. Same with boomkins and elemental shamans.
    Do you really think two Paragon mages are fire, because they don't have skill for arcane? Like, really?

    Baltha
    Cevius

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    In that perfect world of yours nobody would roll a pure dps class. Why would I roll a rogue when I can roll a kitty druid and have tank/caster/healer offspec just by farming gear for a week or two?

    The top 4 dps should be rogue, mage, warlock and hunter, possibly with rogue doing slightly more dps than the ranged classes. The hybrids should do something like 5-10% less damage than pures.
    I think this is an interesting argument. Utility and dps should both be considered when picking people for raids, however I do believe that it takes a really long time to build up gear for 2 or more different specs.

    Now it takes a few days of playing time to level to 80 (I might be off here... point should still be viable) but you can do this at any time of day. Raiding for gear means either being online at the same times every week for guild runs.. or being online at good times for pugs.

    So; I think building 2 or 3 different sets of gear is a real commitment.. especially because each content patch you need to do it over again. A feral/Resto druid has to run ICC 25 effectively twice as much. I realize a lot of gear drops which is passed to offspecs.. but in 25 man raids this happens a lot less.. especially if you are progressing to heroic icc.. or pugging.

    I think people who play seriously have gear for main spec which is awesome.. and then weaker gear for offspec.. usually. This means when they change specs for some fights they are not performing at their best. Hybrids are not the be all end all of endgame.

    I agree Fury is imbalanced.

    On another note.. If I were starting my own 25 man raiding guild... I would actually go out of my way to fill it with every viable raiding spec ... this would exclude specs like.. BM hunters or Arms warriors. I wouldn't be concerned at all about which class does the biggest dps.. but balancing a group.
    .

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroldus View Post
    I think this is an interesting argument. Utility and dps should both be considered when picking people for raids, however I do believe that it takes a really long time to build up gear for 2 or more different specs.

    So; I think building 2 or 3 different sets of gear is a real commitment.. especially because each content patch you need to do it over again. A feral/Resto druid has to run ICC 25 effectively twice as much. I realize a lot of gear drops which is passed to offspecs.. but in 25 man raids this happens a lot less.. especially if you are progressing to heroic icc.. or pugging.
    This is simply not what I've seen in practice. Most healers in my guild have had a viable dps offspec through the whole ICC and we have multiple dps with fully geared tank offspecs. Even my alt has icc25 hc viable offspec gear that I've never even used simply by picking up drops that would've gotten DEd otherwise. With the huge influx of frost badges it doesn't take long to get everything for your main spec after which you can get a full offset, add to that crafted items, 10 man runs and voa and you don't even need to get any drops from the main 25 man progression runs.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Biston View Post
    This one time my guild told me to cat is up for the weekend a while back on a Friday because they were trying out a new tank. Long story short: I woke up the following Tuesday, having topped DPS, but also strung out on energy drinks and a white powdery residue around my nose I can only assume was coke.

    Feral DPS isn't complicated.

    It's JOHN FUCKING MADDEN.

    OMG THIS IS AWESOME. Im feral dps and i always have trouble explaining how to do feral dps to noobs or to guildies who dont understand my spec.

    I so <3 you bro.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by syko View Post
    OMG THIS IS AWESOME. Im feral dps and i always have trouble explaining how to do feral dps to noobs or to guildies who dont understand my spec.
    The problem is that you're trying to represent a priority list as a flow chart, which obviously ends up a bloody mess.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazertrooper View Post
    Anyways, this justifies what I've been saying always since icc came out. Arcane requires far more skill than fire. Same with boomkins and elemental shamans.
    I agree, Fire's superior scaling with gear is a fucking idiotic assertion. You heard it here folks, Arcane requires far more skill than fire!

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