Ret Talent: Selfless Healer

[Flaks]

I feel that the biggest flaw in retribution playstyle (pvp-wise) is its definition as a support damage dealer. This persona is greatly skewed with the fact that damage has to be greatly sacrificed for healing.

I feel that for retribution to be pvp viable, something needs to be done to allow WoG to be more viable for less holy power. There's a reason the tree is almost non-existent on beta in lieu of overpowered protection and holy trees.

I believe that the talent 'eternal glory' should be moved into deep retribution (or some form of it) to allow retribution to either cast WoG without a holy power cost or be able to get the full benefit from the heal without generating the full holy power.

If this change would be flawed (which it would), I'd say make retribution less RNG based (I know everyone's said this a billion and one times but it can't be stressed enough). Remove divine purpose or revamp it to allow other abilities such as judgment to generate holy power (as in 100% chance to do so). Hand of light mastery, as great as it is, is just one more RNG based ability in the retribution arsenal. As it is right now retribution is ridiculously weak without wings up. Changes need to happen.

For the talent itself, its an amazing idea but being balanced around how well you can heal others instead of how well you can heal yourself is absolutely silly. WoG heals for ~12k at 85 in full pvp ret gear. This is far too low of a heal compared to how much damage classes are doing. Selfless healer, though it might go against the name, needs to increase the power of the heal on the paladin himself as well.

[Sindy]

Your premise is flawed.

For cata forget, must max dps, screw everything else philosophy.

New way of thinking; What can i do for the raids benefit?

If that means your personal dps takes a hit, but you drop a heal on someone when the healers cant cope or are affected by a boss mechanic, and you save them, thereby upping the raids dps, you have contributed more than just straight dps burn.

Afer all, is that boomkin doing more for the raid by stopping dps to cast a combat res and bringing a healer back up, or should he just nuke nuke nuke to top the meters?

Topping dps meters is pointless if you can benefit the raid more by using utility talents andtaking a small dps loss.

Sounds like you're used to having bad healers. With the new talents, your healers should be able to do their job, and a 15k well placed instant heal can save the raid but that is what LoH is for, and it is a guaranteed save. You shouldn't have to heal anyone other than the main tank, if you do, then your healers are failing, not your ability to play your ret paladin.

A combat rez is quite a lot different than stopping to instantly heal someone for a minor amount compared to healing classes (word of glory) and eat up all of your DPS resources as a result. I'm not saying you should never heal, but something you should never do is join a raid as a DPS with the expectation that you will have to offheal. Healers should be able to do that. If they can't get new healers, don't gimp your DPS.

[Talen]

Oh, I understand that. I was simply trying to reconcile a way that the talent truly rewards us for using it to heal.

That presumes there is a reward for using it. There isn't. Theres a dmaage increase that mitigates the lost DPS from not using a TV. But its still a loss...or at least, is intended to be so.

---------- Post added 2010-10-25 at 06:13 PM ----------

New way of thinking; What can i do for the raids benefit?

If that means your personal dps takes a hit, but you drop a heal on someone when the healers cant cope or are affected by a boss mechanic, and you save them, thereby upping the raids dps, you have contributed more than just straight dps burn.

And the flaw with that is that this attitude means you have to pay more attention to the raid than you do to yor own rotation. It means you must save up your HP and use it to heal rather than DPS.

Why? Because as a DPS, you WON'T know if a healer can't cope. You either trust that your healers can cope....in which case you use HP for DPS...or you assume they can't, in which case you use HP primarily to heal. Even in the best case scenario, where the healers are able to communicate with you, you're still looking at a situation where a DPS player is brought along primarily to heal.

Granted that saving a DPS player from death ups the raids DPS....but at the same time, they have their own survival tools. Nor can you guarantee you'll have HP available unless your role is primarily that of healing. And you don't act to save the raid based on the premise that you may have the HP available to heal.

Afer all, is that boomkin doing more for the raid by stopping dps to cast a combat res and bringing a healer back up, or should he just nuke nuke nuke to top the meters?

A poor example...its a one shot BRes that occurs once a fight, at best. A better and more appropriate example would be to ask if the Boomkin would do more for the raid by switching to caster form and healing instead. Because SH is near useless as an emergency heal...it relies on build up, it relies on luck and neither quality is desirable.

In essence, a raid will have the number of healers it needs to keep the raid alive. Ret dropping DPS to heal should be unnecessary and will extend the fight, exacerbating mana issues.

EJL

[Malthanis]

That presumes there is a reward for using it. There isn't. Theres a dmaage increase that mitigates the lost DPS from not using a TV. But its still a loss...or at least, is intended to be so.

I understand the point of the bonus damage is merely mitigation of the true loss of the talent. I was more or less speculating on ways they could make us want to use this talent effectively. For a Retribution paladin to actually want to use this outside of a "fan has hit the shit" situation, it would have to reward the player, not merely mitigate the loss.

[Talen]

I understand the point of the bonus damage is merely mitigation of the true loss of the talent. I was more or less speculating on ways they could make us want to use this talent effectively. For a Retribution paladin to actually want to use this outside of a "fan has hit the shit" situation, it would have to reward the player, not merely mitigate the loss.

This touches on why SH is IMO anyay a bad talent.

For SH to be of any value, you have to be a Paladin who wants to heal and does so. Which begs the question...why not spec Holy?

EJL

[Rhosis]

Please look at this and see if you agree.

OK lets look at the talents (IN Cata)

Selfless Healer: When you heal others with your Word of Glory, it increases the effectiveness of the heal by 50% and increases your damage done by 4% per charge of Holy Power for 10 sec.

Zealotry :
3 Holy Power 2 min cooldown
Instant
Your Crusader Strike generates 3 charges of Holy Power per strike for the next 20 sec. Requires 3 Holy Power to use, but does not consume Holy Power.

Way i see it: Use Zealotry (We still have 3 HP cause Zealotry doesnt consume it) then use macro to use WOG on your focus (Tank, DPS, Chuck Norris's mother)
After this we got the whole 12% dmg increase we then go into to a CS - TV spam using the Zealotry buff. After Zealotry has ended then we pop wings and thanks to the Sanctified Wrath talent use HoW on every CD.Hell this doesnt even include Inquisition ( 30 sec 30% increase in Holy DMG, this is huge. Used 10 seconds before poping wings we become true monsters.) Add to this 5 stacks of Seal of Truth and blowing any trinkets, RET PALAS FINALY HAVE SOME SYNERGY. Palas are gonna have to finaly learn about stacking more than a Wings and trinket CDs. If we pop our CDs right i dont see why we cant hit the top dps slot.

[Deleted]

Selfless Healer: Couse i clearly picked a dps tree to heal ! Honestly we have enough suport abilities that 5k WoG isn't gonna save anyone. I just wanna know what kind of Retard puts such a talent into a dps tree -.-'

[Sindy]

Please look at this and see if you agree.

OK lets look at the talents (IN Cata)

Selfless Healer: When you heal others with your Word of Glory, it increases the effectiveness of the heal by 50% and increases your damage done by 4% per charge of Holy Power for 10 sec.

Zealotry :
3 Holy Power 2 min cooldown
Instant
Your Crusader Strike generates 3 charges of Holy Power per strike for the next 20 sec. Requires 3 Holy Power to use, but does not consume Holy Power.

Way i see it: Use Zealotry (We still have 3 HP cause Zealotry doesnt consume it) then use macro to use WOG on your focus (Tank, DPS, Chuck Norris's mother)
After this we got the whole 12% dmg increase we then go into to a CS - TV spam using the Zealotry buff. After Zealotry has ended then we pop wings and thanks to the Sanctified Wrath talent use HoW on every CD.Hell this doesnt even include Inquisition ( 30 sec 30% increase in Holy DMG, this is huge. Used 10 seconds before poping wings we become true monsters.) Add to this 5 stacks of Seal of Truth and blowing any trinkets, RET PALAS FINALY HAVE SOME SYNERGY. Palas are gonna have to finaly learn about stacking more than a Wings and trinket CDs. If we pop our CDs right i dont see why we cant hit the top dps slot.

It's a DPS loss.

[jenseits]

Ret healing is a commitment. The second you decide to cast a heal, you're not going to do that competitive dps. For a ret pld to make a meaningful difference via healing, they have to commit to it and actually take the time to heal, or use LoH. A lone heal from WoG no matter how buffed through talents and gear is not going to save someone or make that much of a difference. If it does, you're raid is doing something wrong.

That whole notion of commitment is fine and all, because then it feels like a choice, but to waste talent points that could further provide DPS or OFFENSIVE UTILITY is an utter insult to the spec and the ppl that play it. There is no reason to cast WoG unless you plan on chain healing at that point, in which case you're not making up that DPS loss.

I'd much rather stick to the boss and do my job because i have a better chance of that bringing them down that my lone heal saving the lot of us

[Bisque]

Your premise is flawed.

For cata forget, must max dps, screw everything else philosophy.

New way of thinking; What can i do for the raids benefit?

If that means your personal dps takes a hit, but you drop a heal on someone when the healers cant cope or are affected by a boss mechanic, and you save them, thereby upping the raids dps, you have contributed more than just straight dps burn.

Afer all, is that boomkin doing more for the raid by stopping dps to cast a combat res and bringing a healer back up, or should he just nuke nuke nuke to top the meters?

Topping dps meters is pointless if you can benefit the raid more by using utility talents andtaking a small dps loss.

-see i agree with this. I dont have the exact quote from blizz but i know they dont want ever talent to be a straight MOAR DPS. Selfless is blizz lame attempt to reward Rets for pocket healing/emergengy healing now as to whether or naught the ret will actually take the talent or heal is anohter story. You dont have to agree with blizz's ret philosphy but you have to at least acknowledge it; simply they want if the case arises if it is really needed, they want to give an incentive for rets to heal. Im sure blizz could just ignore WOG talent and put in some straight dps talent but its in there for a reason, they want to remind the ret " hey hey you, yes you can still heal I know your all dps but u can still heal".

Again dont have to agree with Blizz's reason but at the very least lets be aware of it.

[Malthanis]

This touches on why SH is IMO anyay a bad talent.

For SH to be of any value, you have to be a Paladin who wants to heal and does so. Which begs the question...why not spec Holy?

EJL

That's not quite what I was getting at. I was saying that Selfless Healer would have to be made comparable to Maelstrom Weapon, inasmuch that it would give us some form of offensive ability as well. An Enhancement Shaman would normally use a DPS ability with a 5-stack of MW, but they have the choice of saying "Huh, there's a lot of people hurt, and it looks like the healers are having trouble keeping up. I'll toss a Chain Heal instead". Sure, the Chain Heal will be a net DPS loss, but the spells made available by MW don't comprise a large enough chunk of the Shaman's DPS to be that great of a loss.

With Selfless Healer (as has been stated), we must give up our most devastating (and supposedly signature) attacks for a mediocre heal and a minor damage buff.

-see i agree with this. I dont have the exact quote from blizz but i know they dont want ever talent to be a straight MOAR DPS. Selfless is blizz lame attempt to reward Rets for pocket healing/emergengy healing now as to whether or naught the ret will actually take the talent or heal is anohter story. You dont have to agree with blizz's ret philosphy but you have to at least acknowledge it; simply they want if the case arises if it is really needed, they want to give an incentive for rets to heal. Im sure blizz could just ignore WOG talent and put in some straight dps talent but its in there for a reason, they want to remind the ret " hey hey you, yes you can still heal I know your all dps but u can still heal".

Again dont have to agree with Blizz's reason but at the very least lets be aware of it.

We're all well aware of Blizzard's decision to make us pick at least a few utility talents. What the real contention here is that the talent doesn't justify the cost of it's use. As I stated above with my Maelstrom Weapon example, a Shaman may lose DPS, but it won't be that much. The damage buff from SH doesn't even come close to what damage we may choose to utilize it.

Also, as commendable as throwing some emergency heals may be, the fact that WoG requires Holy Power means that we must always take that second of thought looking over our raid frames when we get to 3 HP wondering if we should toss out that heal. The very concept of 'emergency healing' entails being able to pop off a heal in a split second, not take 9+ seconds to wind it up.

I myself have started through AoW Flashes at my raid, because it was just that necessary (had a healer DC at the tail end of a fight). The defining factor of AoW healing was that it was relatively dependable. I knew that it would be up enough that it would make a difference in my healing. SH doesn't allow for that.

[Ronark]

That's not quite what I was getting at. I was saying that Selfless Healer would have to be made comparable to Maelstrom Weapon, inasmuch that it would give us some form of offensive ability as well. An Enhancement Shaman would normally use a DPS ability with a 5-stack of MW, but they have the choice of saying "Huh, there's a lot of people hurt, and it looks like the healers are having trouble keeping up. I'll toss a Chain Heal instead". Sure, the Chain Heal will be a net DPS loss, but the spells made available by MW don't comprise a large enough chunk of the Shaman's DPS to be that great of a loss.

We'd need something similar, along the lines of a stacking AoW buff.

[Malthanis]

We'd need something similar, along the lines of a stacking AoW buff.

I've got it! We get a stacking buff (not sure on the maximum of the stack, or what would trigger it) equal to 12% bonus damage (equal to the SH buff), and at max stacks we can cast a free WoG, with the caveat that when cast on others it heals for more.

[Ronark]

I've got it! We get a stacking buff (not sure on the maximum of the stack, or what would trigger it) equal to 12% bonus damage (equal to the SH buff), and at max stacks we can cast a free WoG, with the caveat that when cast on others it heals for more.

It would be more along the lines of AoW having a 30% chance to proc on Melee attacks, stacking to 3 times, reducing the cast time on AoW and healing spells by 33/66/100%, and reducing their mana cost by 25/50/75%.

Then, have SH increase the healing on instant cast heals by 25/50% when used on others.

[turbotuna]

Seems easy to balance to me. Let it make your next TV hit for 2x damage. Or spread an equal amount of damage over the next 3x CS + TV rotation with the percentage damage increase being equal to the lost TV damage. Then your overall DPS stays the same.

[Ronark]

Seems easy to balance to me. Let it make your next TV hit for 2x damage. Or spread an equal amount of damage over the next 3x CS + TV rotation with the percentage damage increase being equal to the lost TV damage. Then your overall DPS stays the same.

No- The idea of SH is that you DO give up DPS to heal- the 12% buff just simply "refund" some of the DPS loss.

If SH wasn't tied to our #1 damage source and instead something else (in this case Exo), it would at least then be more attractive.

[Malthanis]

Seems easy to balance to me. Let it make your next TV hit for 2x damage. Or spread an equal amount of damage over the next 3x CS + TV rotation with the percentage damage increase being equal to the lost TV damage. Then your overall DPS stays the same.

That's definitely an interesting approach to it. The only problem with that is the game would still have to push the calculations of your TV through, along with splitting the damage as you suggest. It may not seem like much, but it's always a better practice to reduce the number of calculations required when possible. Adding some form of percentage buff would be preferable.

It would be more along the lines of AoW having a 30% chance to proc on Melee attacks, stacking to 3 times, reducing the cast time on AoW and healing spells by 33/66/100%, and reducing their mana cost by 25/50/75%.

Then, have SH increase the healing on instant cast heals by 25/50% when used on others.

I hope you meant to include the damage buff to Exorcism on your AoW rewrite there. But I can already see them limiting this to exclude Divine Light, or maybe just limiting it to Flash again. Can you imagine a 150% powered, 25% mana cost DL in any form of PvP? It would be nerfed faster than DS/AW.

[Eittri]

In all honesty I think the talent was implemented so that the ret could toss a decent heal at his ally and they could begin to put pressure on the opposing team with the damage buff. You could use it to heal people in the raid, but the point of a lot of the raid damage you see is that it is avoidable. As for throwing out heals on the tank if something bad happens to take the tank heals temporarily out of action, I believe that a lot of people were doing this already.

[turbotuna]

No- The idea of SH is that you DO give up DPS to heal- the 12% buff just simply "refund" some of the DPS loss.

If SH wasn't tied to our #1 damage source and instead something else (in this case Exo), it would at least then be more attractive.

That's my point: it would be attractive if it wasn't a dps loss.

To elaborate: as it is now its a DPS loss, no question, so I'm going to skip the talent. Because I don't have the talent I'm less likely to use WoG and focus on DPS. If the talent wasn't a DPS loss I might take it, be willing to throw out the occasional WoG, and stop being a selfish player.

[Malthanis]

In all honesty I think the talent was implemented so that the ret could toss a decent heal at his ally and they could begin to put pressure on the opposing team with the damage buff. You could use it to heal people in the raid, but the point of a lot of the raid damage you see is that it is avoidable. As for throwing out heals on the tank if something bad happens to take the tank heals temporarily out of action, I believe that a lot of people were doing this already.

As we have stated, the problem with WoG as an emergency heal is that you're looking at a possible 9+ second wind-up on it for it to be effective. If you can read a fight 9 seconds ahead of time in order to save the HP for this, then I congratulate you sir, for you are a better player than I.

That's my point: it would be attractive if it wasn't a dps loss.

The thing is that it must be a DPS loss to be a balanced talent. The root of the problem is that it's too large of a DPS loss for the healing gained to be attractive.

Consider the old Art of War. I always used Exorcism when able with it. However, since Exo had it's 15 second CD, I had those 15 seconds free to throw Flashes as I saw fit.