Codename Puppy was never going to be good for DKs

[Deleted]

Death Knight (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)
Blood
Blood Presence - assuming a new Presence will consume any stored Runic Power. No longer has a cooldown.
Death Strike now heals for a minimum of at least 10% of your maximum health, up from 5%.

Frost
Mastery: Frozen Heart now increases frost damage done by 20% (down from 25%). Each point of Mastery increases frost damage by an additional 2%. (Down from 2.5%)
Frost Presence - assuming a new Presence will consume any stored Runic Power. No longer has a cooldown.
Icy Touch ranged and melee attack speed duration changed to 21 sec, down from 30 sec.
Killing Machine no longer affects Howling Blast, now affecs Obliterate.
Annihilation now increases damage dealt by Obliterate by 15/30/45%. (Up from 10/20/30%)
Frost Fever now lasts 21 sec, down from 30 sec.

Unholy
Unholy Presence - assuming a new Presence will consume any stored Runic Power. No longer has a cooldown.
Necrotic Strike now deals 100% weapon damage (up from 80%) and absorbs the next [ 75% of AP ] healing received by the target (Up from 40%). Additional Effect - For 15 sec, or until the full amount of healing is absorbed, the target's casting time is increased by 30%.
Blood Plague now lasts 21 sec, down from 30 sec.
Necrosis gone and replaced with Runic Corruption - Reduces the cost of your Death Coil by 3/6, and causes your Runic Empowerment ability to no longer refresh a depleted rune, but instead to increase your rune regeneration rate by 50/100% for 3 sec.
Unholy Frenzy now causes the target to lose health equal to 2% of their maximum health every 3 sec. (Down from 3% every 2 sec)
Epidemic now increases the duration of Blood Plague and Frost Fever by 4/8/12 sec. (Down from 6/12/18 sec)

Reposted here for discussion.

I don't like the reduction of disease times, it messes with the rotation everyone was hoping for.
What worries me most is that they seem to be right in there doing the numbers tuning (see frost) without taking into account some of the core ability problems we're worried about (random rune refreshes) Does this mean they think we're finished the development stage or am I jumping to conclusions here?

[Floreon]

this patch is amazing shut up

[alien1099]

this patch is amazing shut up

Not really. They should have just turned Runic Empowerment into the replacement they made for Necrosis, Runic Corruption.

[Harker]

Reposted here for discussion.

I don't like the reduction of disease times, it messes with the rotation everyone was hoping for.
What worries me most is that they seem to be right in there doing the numbers tuning (see frost) without taking into account some of the core ability problems we're worried about (random rune refreshes) Does this mean they think we're finished the development stage or am I jumping to conclusions here?

With Epidemic you'll be sitting at a 33 second duration, giving you 3 seconds for latency/whatever to reapply is what it looks like to me. I just don't appreciate being forced into Epidemic regardless of other talents to get the reapply PS+IT once a minute hawtness.

[Deleted]

i got jumped by a dk in last beta patch wich i killed with no problems just that his diseases stayed on me for like 30 secs after he died...

[durza]

Not really. They should have just turned Runic Empowerment into the replacement they made for Necrosis, Runic Corruption.

GC would like to have a word with u

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/26859...c-empowerment/

[MortalWombat]

Frost gets killing machine for oblits and they hit harder, unholy gets runic corruption. Whats not to love?

[Deleted]

Glyph of Disease is still available as a major glyph. Pick that, use pestilence.

We don't know yet the GoD will still be in game, and with Outbreak we'll only refresh diseases every minute (outbreak ==30sec==> Refresh ==30sec==> Outbreak ==30sec==> refresh)

So yeah, I'm guessing this is the rotation they are expecting, I don't see then the usefulness of Festering strike's disease extension effect for PvE, since it won't affect the above rotation much (outbreak is free, so all you save is a gcd, which you used for FeS anyway).

I'm not going to jump to conclusions already about it, not until I've had time to get onto beta and test it for myself. It might still happen that FeS, since we use it anyway on blood runes, could extend the disease out far enough to take us to the one min CD of outbreak.

What does worry me the most is that they appear to be done with adding/changing core abilities, and are now tweeking disease lengths, damage coefficients etc.

[alien1099]

GC would like to have a word with u

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/26859...c-empowerment/

We already get killing machine and rime procs. Thanks. Whack-a-mole and RNG gameplay sucks. Besides what he said made absolutely no sense.

"We want to keep all the specs on their toes, just like you already do with frost! Only we're going to make it even more reactionary! Except one spec! We don't want you to have to be so reactionary with that one if you don't want to!"

What other class has to put up with such unpredictability in regards to their resources?

[Deleted]

Frost gets killing machine for oblits and they hit harder, unholy gets runic corruption. Whats not to love?

So you are completely happy with the way DK's look now? You feel fine that all they have left to do is ensure the abilities we have do the correct amount of damage? It doesn't bother you that you have 6 mandatory talents for DW, or that if you go for 2-Handed frost you are forced to get Icy Reach? Or that you need to get Hungering Cold to get Howling Blast?

There are still some thing that I feel are still somewhat "clunky" in the trees that should be cleaned up before we go live. But that's just me. Or is it?

[Rammellaar]

Puppies -> Dk's.. nuff said

[BurningStick]

So you are completely happy with the way DK's look now? You feel fine that all they have left to do is ensure the abilities we have do the correct amount of damage? It doesn't bother you that you have 6 mandatory talents for DW, or that if you go for 2-Handed frost you are forced to get Icy Reach? Or that you need to get Hungering Cold to get Howling Blast?

There are still some thing that I feel are still somewhat "clunky" in the trees that should be cleaned up before we go live. But that's just me. Or is it?

To be honest, other classes / spec gotta choose abilities they don't necessarily want either, fx arcane mage and slow, so you are not alone in that. About the Icy Reach thing, yes it is annyoing, but Blizzard will just say it is a fun utility talent you can now have.

[Lopiak]

Blizzard will just say it is a fun utility talent you can now have.

But isnt that part of the problem? It isnt really fun and provides little utility in PvE. But its yet another mandatory talent we dont need

[MortalWombat]

So you are completely happy with the way DK's look now? You feel fine that all they have left to do is ensure the abilities we have do the correct amount of damage? It doesn't bother you that you have 6 mandatory talents for DW, or that if you go for 2-Handed frost you are forced to get Icy Reach? Or that you need to get Hungering Cold to get Howling Blast?

There are still some thing that I feel are still somewhat "clunky" in the trees that should be cleaned up before we go live. But that's just me. Or is it?

I don't see why every talent you spend should be for something that will always be usable. If you get the Howling Blast glyph it makes it pretty much replaces Icy Touch from a dps perspective so the 10 yards will be nice for the start of the fight when you're running in, or when you have to run out to avoid a massive aoe. Chains of ice increased range is also good for fights that have adds that need to be controlled.

Not every talent you spend has to increase your dps in tank n spank fights.

[Zorbak]

We already get killing machine and rime procs. Thanks. Whack-a-mole and RNG gameplay sucks. Besides what he said made absolutely no sense.

"We want to keep all the specs on their toes, just like you already do with frost! Only we're going to make it even more reactionary! Except one spec! We don't want you to have to be so reactionary with that one if you don't want to!"

What other class has to put up with such unpredictability in regards to their resources?

New Ret Paladin does.

I'm guessing they took Howling Blast off Killing Machine so it wasn't optimal to pair it with Rime.

[Ganglati]

We already get killing machine and rime procs. Thanks. Whack-a-mole and RNG gameplay sucks. Besides what he said made absolutely no sense.

"We want to keep all the specs on their toes, just like you already do with frost! Only we're going to make it even more reactionary! Except one spec! We don't want you to have to be so reactionary with that one if you don't want to!"

What other class has to put up with such unpredictability in regards to their resources?

Those were my thoughts exactly. "All specs should have some RNG, like Frost does. But we're gonna give an opt-out from even more RNG not to Frost, but Unholy, the one tree that kinda needs it." On top of which, RE didn't hurt Unholy too much in my experience on the PTR. Half the time any rune that gets refreshed by RE can immediately be used on a Scourge Strike thanks to Unholy converting 4 Death runes and SS only costing 1U. Frost on the other hand can't use Oblit via RE without getting lucky...twice. In fact, we were better set to use Howling Blast on our Death and solo Frost runes. But then they nerf'd HB's usefulness (no longer part of KM and Mastery Frost damage got nerfed) and buffed the hell out of Oblit. The only good thing to come out of this is now I KNOW Blizz intends us to save RE runes for Oblits. It's annoying as fuck and I kinda wanna cry, but at least I know...I guess...

---------- Post added 2010-09-18 at 08:30 AM ----------

I don't see why every talent you spend should be for something that will always be usable. If you get the Howling Blast glyph it makes it pretty much replaces Icy Touch from a dps perspective so the 10 yards will be nice for the start of the fight when you're running in, or when you have to run out to avoid a massive aoe. Chains of ice increased range is also good for fights that have adds that need to be controlled.

Not every talent you spend has to increase your dps in tank n spank fights.

I agree, but range all by its lonesome is BORING and situational to the point of being, yes, useless, and the fact that it's required for 2H simply because the only other option is an even more worthless DW talent is a design flaw (AND makes Frost a very sh!tty subspec option, another design flaw IMO). Add something else to Icy Reach to make it more interesting (even if the something else is more PvP help, like Ret's Long Arm of the Law mechanic), or roll Nerves of Cold Steel into Threat of Thassarian (my preferred change, so DW and 2H need the same number of talents to be viable, if only for easy balancing's sake) and add something else at the top in its place (though even in this scenario I think Icy Reach needs more spice).

[Athael]

Blizzard has already stated, dozens of times, that the builds they release on the beta server are several versions behind their internal builds.

What are you guys doing? Beta's not done. Stop arguing about yesterday's weather.

There will be plenty of time and reason to cry and moan when Blizzard says, "Yes, these are the finished talent trees, what do you think?"

[jangkun]

I love the new DK tanking and this change to DS is nice. I 'd just like that we could see our mastery. (like a red shield on us)

[Harker]

Blizzard has already stated, dozens of times, that the builds they release on the beta server are several versions behind their internal builds.

What are you guys doing? Beta's not done. Stop arguing about yesterday's weather.

There will be plenty of time and reason to cry and moan when Blizzard says, "Yes, these are the finished talent trees, what do you think?"

I sure hope you're right, and you probably are.....it's just the posts that they have made about "Tanking is too easy" and "We like super randomness" that scares me.

[AedanWolfe]

I don't see why every talent you spend should be for something that will always be usable. If you get the Howling Blast glyph it makes it pretty much replaces Icy Touch from a dps perspective so the 10 yards will be nice for the start of the fight when you're running in, or when you have to run out to avoid a massive aoe. Chains of ice increased range is also good for fights that have adds that need to be controlled.

Not every talent you spend has to increase your dps in tank n spank fights.

wrong, every talent should be useful, and if its not gonna increase your dps, it needs to be a utiltiy you could weave into your dps fairly regularly or have it be a utility that will be useful in a tight situation (like being knocked back from boss, or almost killed, etc)

sad thing is i actually like your talents better, on my enh shaman i can spend every talent point on dps talents that are either mandatory, or uninteresting, and when im done there are still talents in enh that would increase my dps.

id gladly take your crappy utility talents instead of nothing but dps increase talents. thats what they were supposed to get away from!