Blood and 2h Frost on PTR.

[slayerx]

Those are the 2 specs that I am interested in since I don't have 264 2x1h weapons and I dislike unholy.

Blood
First of all, I tried to see how our soloing abilities are and went in Halls of Stone (normal) and except for the fact that I did not have enough dps for the event, if I was careful, I could solo up to that. Then I went in HoL heroic and had to use all my CDs on the first 2 mobs. As it turns out, when Blizzard increased all mobs' damage to make leveling more challenging, they increased the elites too. At least in the PTR. Someone said a tank in ICC25 got hit for 60K by a trash mob. So I started doing random heroics to test the tanking.

I like that they are increasing the minimum heal from Death Strike to 10%. This means that it will heal for at least what it did before the change. More if you take heavy damage.

I went in a lot of heroics. The damage you take in ICC tanking gear is nowhere near as low as it is on live. The healers who aren't used to the new healing rotations might even have trouble in the non-ICC heroics. Especially if you pull more than 1 pack at a time. The caster packs between the second boss and the cave in PoS are horrible and you have to manage with a lot of CDs and a good healer. HoR ... in the end we managed to do it but after that I was hoping for something like "world first" achievement...

Threat
AoE
All I can say is that keeping more than 1-2 mobs on yourself without DnD is some kind of miracle that you have to do without diseases because the time it takes to put them on and spread them pretty much guarantees that someone will overagro on at least one of them. If Blizzard doesn't want us to spam DnD in combat, they should make it reset when we leave combat for example.

Single target
If something happens and I lose the threat, I usually manage to taunt right back but if I have the Glyph of DRW for 50% extra threat, it will probably never be a problem.

Survivability
I usually manage to pop a CD without losing the agro and the fact that some of the CDs have a rune cost and/or a global cooldown means only that you should use those if you can and Icebound Fortitude / trinket / potion when you cannot.

Summary
Once I got used to the playstyle, I was able to hold the agro and help the healer to keep me alive even through HoR (I'm not exaggerating, it's a nightmare there). Of course, the healer had to be really good himself. I still needed DnD on pretty much every pack that had at least 3 mobs.


Frost
AoE
Since Howling Blast doesn't have a cooldown, the AoE damage seems to be really strong. I really doubt that the glyph of Howling Blast will stay so Hungering Cold gets a nice use for PvE as well. It gives you a way to spread a 100% damage Frost Fever without even wasting a Frost Rune. DnD costs only 1 unholy rune so you can use it for damage as well. Our AoE probably deserves the nerf it is getting in the latest Beta patch notes.

Single Target
I couldn't manage to get a huge dps on a single target but we aren't bad. On a Target Dummy I do about 6-7K dps. I don't know if Glyph of Obliterate works but I don't have it. Also on the latest Beta patch notes we are getting some Obliterate love so I expect a bit of increase on the single target damage.

Summary
Our 2h Frost dps is really nice. I'm loving the new rune system as a 2h Frost dps. Runic Empowerment is nowhere near as unpredictable as people make it to be. Unless I have some really bad luck, I have something to press in just about every global cooldown. You need to stop looking at the action bar and wait for the abilities to light up and you need to get a good addon that shows the runes and runic power. Rune Watch does the trick for me. It shows the diseases as well.


And finally
You should focus on the runic power abilities when the fight is coming to an end and your downtime from rune cooldowns between fights will be close to non-existent.

There are a few talents like Icy Reach that aren't really doing anything and On a Pale Horse that still has a debuff duration decrease which was supposed to be removed from every talent in every class but overall I can say that it is looking quite promising. I simply cannot understand what is with all the drama in the forums.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

[Exclusive]

Those are the 2 specs that I am interested in since I don't have 264 2x1h weapons and I dislike unholy.

Blood
First of all, I tried to see how our soloing abilities are and went in House of Stone

Did you meet Fred and Barney?

[Drakiru]

thx for sharing, but i must say that i like frost dw more
i would like to see the difference between the dw and 2h on PTR atm

[Futhark]

Our 2h Frost dps is really nice. I'm loving the new rune system as a 2h Frost dps. Runic Empowerment is nowhere near as unpredictable as people make it to be. Unless I have some really bad luck, I have something to press in just about every global cooldown. You need to stop looking at the action bar and wait for the abilities to light up and you need to get a good addon that shows the runes and runic power. Rune Watch does the trick for me. It shows the diseases as well.

It is nice to see not everyone is caught up in the "RE SUCKSOMG" meme. It works really well for Frost for me too.

I use DKIRunes/DKIDiseases. Maybe those with addons see RE's true potential?

[slayerx]

It is nice to see not everyone is caught up in the "RE SUCKSOMG" meme. It works really well for Frost for me too.

I use DKIRunes/DKIDiseases. Maybe those with addons see RE's true potential?

It's not just that. You have to watch your runes, not what you can cast right now. You have to think 1 step ahead.

Also the default UI gets bugged. I've seen on the default UI that I have 2 Death Runes but RuneWatch shows them as Blood because they have already converted to Blood from not being used for a while (between fights). Not to mention that watching the runes/runic power on the default UI is really uncomfortable.

[mööh]

House of stone?

[slayerx]

House of stone?

Fixed.

Seriously guys, one typo is the only thing you could see in the entire post?

[Varabently]

Typically if its a stupid type like that its hard to even keep reading.

[androlite]

Change: They should change tiers for Nerves of cold steel with Might of the Frozen wastes.
Reason: So that all talents can benefit from increase runic power.

Change: Replace Runic power mastery with Glyph of Icy touch. Runic power Mastery should be free for Frost DK.
Reason: This will benefit all talents and therefore in Tier 1 and it should be in 3 points allocation, like 10%/15%/20%.

Change: Leave Dual Weld to Frost DK.
Reason: Needing 2 x 1H epic weapons is bad enough, imagine DK in other talents roll for them too. It will take forever to get the 2 weapons you want. In the end it will be like DBW, everyone will ninja them.

Change: Bring back old Rime and Howling blast CD as the proc to watch instead of the dumb Runic Empowerment.
Reason: We are running out of Global Cool Down to cast the random rune refresh.

Change: Get rid of hungering cold
Reason: It is close to useless in raid when everyone AoE class is AoEing.

Change: Replace Hungering cold with survival skill.
Reason: We certainly need some survival skills to regain health, probably replace hungering cold with something cool like your frost fever damage regen DK health in frost presence.

[Frygar]

Change: They should change tiers for Nerves of cold steel with Might of the Frozen wastes.
Reason: So that all talents can benefit from increase runic power.
Counter-reason: They put this high in Frost to balance the benefit vs Unholy and DW Frost. If they gave it to Unholy then they would just have to take something away from Unholy to re-balance.

Change: Replace Runic power mastery with Glyph of Icy touch. Runic power Mastery should be free for Frost DK.
Reason: This will benefit all talents and therefore in Tier 1 and it should be in 3 points allocation, like 10%/15%/20%.
Counter-reason: There is no reason to assume it should be free. Other specs can also benefit from the increased runic power cap.

Change: Leave Dual Weld to Frost DK.
Reason: Needing 2 x 1H epic weapons is bad enough, imagine DK in other talents roll for them too. It will take forever to get the 2 weapons you want. In the end it will be like DBW, everyone will ninja them.
Counter-reason: What DK spec is going to try Dual Wield besides Frost without Tot?

Change: Bring back old Rime and Howling blast CD as the proc to watch instead of the dumb Runic Empowerment.
Reason: We are running out of Global Cool Down to cast the random rune refresh.
Counter-reason: False.

Change: Get rid of hungering cold
Reason: It is close to useless in raid when everyone AoE class is AoEing.
Counter-reason: It is useful in PvP and instantly spreads Frost fever.

Change: Replace Hungering cold with survival skill.
Reason: We certainly need some survival skills to regain health, probably replace hungering cold with something cool like your frost fever damage regen DK health in frost presence.
Counter-reason: Frost needs a CC in PvP, and Hungering Cold provides it. You can regain health using Death Strike.

[Cerabret]

I pulled about 400 more dps as DW than i did 2h frost (though at only 1 test it's hardly a fair sampling, and i messed with some things so maybe the test i did as 2h made me more competent for DW and skewed the data), however, i had significantly more empyt GCD's as DW. 2H frost had both more RP, and more chances for RE procs. This means more FS's and a chance for more other strikes.

Really all 2H needs to be competitive with DW is either a baseline +% damage on MoTFW, or maybe some type of GoDS-esque mechanic where having more RP stored gives us more damage (also added on to MoTFW of course).

I'd also like to note that i don't really mind RE, DW gave me the longest down time (not more than 4 or so seconds i think) and Unholy/2H Frost always had something to press

[androlite]

Change: They should change tiers for Nerves of cold steel with Might of the Frozen wastes.
Reason: So that all talents can benefit from increase runic power.
Counter-reason: They put this high in Frost to balance the benefit vs Unholy and DW Frost. If they gave it to Unholy then they would just have to take something away from Unholy to re-balance.
Counter-counter-reason: They are getting Might of the Frozen wastes which is given back to them as a runic regeneration = DPS benefit. It's linked to the "Leave Dual Weld to Frost DK" as it would be hard to get 2 weapons as a DW and now it's even harder if unholy DK chooses to DW.

Change: Replace Runic power mastery with Glyph of Icy touch. Runic power Mastery should be free for Frost DK.
Reason: This will benefit all talents and therefore in Tier 1 and it should be in 3 points allocation, like 10%/15%/20%.
Counter-reason: There is no reason to assume it should be free. Other specs can also benefit from the increased runic power cap.
Counter-counter-reason: It is currently a 2 points talent in live server and now it's 3 points. We got robbed!! It's there because 2H frost DK didn't like their Imporved Icy touch in the first place. So do the DW frost DK when we didn't need to spend this 3 points in the first place. When first announced it was frost passive talent.

Change: Leave Dual Weld to Frost DK.
Reason: Needing 2 x 1H epic weapons is bad enough, imagine DK in other talents roll for them too. It will take forever to get the 2 weapons you want. In the end it will be like DBW, everyone will ninja them.
Counter-reason: What DK spec is going to try Dual Wield besides Frost without Tot?
Counter-counter-reason: If you don't know my Blood DK is DW because only 1H weapon has +Defense stats. The mechanic on live to hold aggro is by DnD and Icy touch, now that they removed defense from game DK tank will have to 2H and Might of the Frozen wastes give us more runic power as resources to use. FYI DK's Icebound fortitude requires 600 defense to reduce 50% damage. Adding defense for DK tank in live is the way to go.

Change: Bring back old Rime and Howling blast CD as the proc to watch instead of the dumb Runic Empowerment.
Reason: We are running out of Global Cool Down to cast the random rune refresh.
Counter-reason: False.
Counter-counter-reason: 10 seconds for rune to regen and there is a GCD of 1.5 seconds, there are only rooms for 6.5 times to cast a spell but I don't mind having more resources to spend since they nerf the rune regen mechanic.

Change: Get rid of hungering cold
Reason: It is close to useless in raid when everyone AoE class is AoEing.
Counter-reason: It is useful in PvP and instantly spreads Frost fever.
Counter-counter-reason: It's only 1 point and in high tier meaning only frost DK will have it but why make it prerequisite to HB. The new talent trees wanted us to reach 31 points but seems like Frost DK only have 29 points to spend instead of 30.

Change: Replace Hungering cold with survival skill.
Reason: We certainly need some survival skills to regain health, probably replace hungering cold with something cool like your frost fever damage regen DK health in frost presence.
Counter-reason: Frost needs a CC in PvP, and Hungering Cold provides it. You can regain health using Death Strike.
Counter-counter-reason: Will you pvp in Frost? What is the point when Unholy with pet is a better pvp talent. You are making frost DK look bad in pvp. We have short legs and therefore needs a pet when you get grounded in pvp. Frost DK in PVP will end up a joke in chat channel.

[Cerabret]

Change:
Counter-counter-reason: If you don't know my Blood DK is DW because only 1H weapon has +Defense stats. The mechanic on live to hold aggro is by DnD and Icy touch, now that they removed defense from game DK tank will have to 2H and Might of the Frozen wastes give us more runic power as resources to use. FYI DK's Icebound fortitude requires 600 defense to reduce 50% damage. Adding defense for DK tank in live is the way to go.

Wait a second...i know this probably isn't the point, and maybe i'm reading this wrong...but you're DW tanking weapons as blood and relying on IT to maintain aggro?

[charivari]

Change: They should change tiers for Nerves of cold steel with Might of the Frozen wastes.
Reason: So that all talents can benefit from increase runic power.
Counter-reason: They put this high in Frost to balance the benefit vs Unholy and DW Frost. If they gave it to Unholy then they would just have to take something away from Unholy to re-balance.
Counter-counter-reason: They are getting Might of the Frozen wastes which is given back to them as a runic regeneration = DPS benefit. It's linked to the "Leave Dual Weld to Frost DK" as it would be hard to get 2 weapons as a DW and now it's even harder if unholy DK chooses to DW.

Change: Replace Runic power mastery with Glyph of Icy touch. Runic power Mastery should be free for Frost DK.
Reason: This will benefit all talents and therefore in Tier 1 and it should be in 3 points allocation, like 10%/15%/20%.
Counter-reason: There is no reason to assume it should be free. Other specs can also benefit from the increased runic power cap.
Counter-counter-reason: It is currently a 2 points talent in live server and now it's 3 points. We got robbed!! It's there because 2H frost DK didn't like their Imporved Icy touch in the first place. So do the DW frost DK when we didn't need to spend this 3 points in the first place. When first announced it was frost passive talent.

Change: Leave Dual Weld to Frost DK.
Reason: Needing 2 x 1H epic weapons is bad enough, imagine DK in other talents roll for them too. It will take forever to get the 2 weapons you want. In the end it will be like DBW, everyone will ninja them.
Counter-reason: What DK spec is going to try Dual Wield besides Frost without Tot?
Counter-counter-reason: If you don't know my Blood DK is DW because only 1H weapon has +Defense stats. The mechanic on live to hold aggro is by DnD and Icy touch, now that they removed defense from game DK tank will have to 2H and Might of the Frozen wastes give us more runic power as resources to use. FYI DK's Icebound fortitude requires 600 defense to reduce 50% damage. Adding defense for DK tank in live is the way to go.

Change: Bring back old Rime and Howling blast CD as the proc to watch instead of the dumb Runic Empowerment.
Reason: We are running out of Global Cool Down to cast the random rune refresh.
Counter-reason: False.
Counter-counter-reason: 10 seconds for rune to regen and there is a GCD of 1.5 seconds, there are only rooms for 6.5 times to cast a spell but I don't mind having more resources to spend since they nerf the rune regen mechanic.

Change: Get rid of hungering cold
Reason: It is close to useless in raid when everyone AoE class is AoEing.
Counter-reason: It is useful in PvP and instantly spreads Frost fever.
Counter-counter-reason: It's only 1 point and in high tier meaning only frost DK will have it but why make it prerequisite to HB. The new talent trees wanted us to reach 31 points but seems like Frost DK only have 29 points to spend instead of 30.

Change: Replace Hungering cold with survival skill.
Reason: We certainly need some survival skills to regain health, probably replace hungering cold with something cool like your frost fever damage regen DK health in frost presence.
Counter-reason: Frost needs a CC in PvP, and Hungering Cold provides it. You can regain health using Death Strike.
Counter-counter-reason: Will you pvp in Frost? What is the point when Unholy with pet is a better pvp talent. You are making frost DK look bad in pvp. We have short legs and therefore needs a pet when you get grounded in pvp. Frost DK in PVP will end up a joke in chat channel.

counter-counter-counter-counter reason

/boggle my head aspload

[Wingwraith]

Wait a second...i know this probably isn't the point, and maybe i'm reading this wrong...but you're DW tanking weapons as blood and relying on IT to maintain aggro?

/facepalm

Thank you for pointing that out, we can now completely ignore this person.

[androlite]

I pulled about 400 more dps as DW than i did 2h frost (though at only 1 test it's hardly a fair sampling, and i messed with some things so maybe the test i did as 2h made me more competent for DW and skewed the data), however, i had significantly more empyt GCD's as DW. 2H frost had both more RP, and more chances for RE procs. This means more FS's and a chance for more other strikes.

Really all 2H needs to be competitive with DW is either a baseline +% damage on MoTFW, or maybe some type of GoDS-esque mechanic where having more RP stored gives us more damage (also added on to MoTFW of course).

I'd also like to note that i don't really mind RE, DW gave me the longest down time (not more than 4 or so seconds i think) and Unholy/2H Frost always had something to press

I'm doing 6.5K dps on PTR before codename puppy as a DW DK and 5.5k using the same character on live server when hitting a dummy boss. In random instance, I hit about 8-9k dps on bosses which is a rare thing on live, hitting almost close to 5-6k only.

Out of all the instances I did, the overall Damage done per instance was between 40-50%. I can see why the nerf on frost DK dps. HB is a killer in group killing.

---------- Post added 2010-09-20 at 12:39 AM ----------

/facepalm

Thank you for pointing that out, we can now completely ignore this person.

"Chills the target for 227 to 245 Frost damage and infects them with Frost Fever, a disease that deals periodic damage and reduces melee and ranged attack speed by 14% for 15 sec. Very high threat when in Frost Presence."

[Foibles]

Change: Leave Dual Weld to Frost DK.
Reason: Needing 2 x 1H epic weapons is bad enough, imagine DK in other talents roll for them too. It will take forever to get the 2 weapons you want. In the end it will be like DBW, everyone will ninja them.
Counter-reason: What DK spec is going to try Dual Wield besides Frost without Tot?
Counter-counter-reason: If you don't know my Blood DK is DW because only 1H weapon has +Defense stats. The mechanic on live to hold aggro is by DnD and Icy touch, now that they removed defense from game DK tank will have to 2H and Might of the Frozen wastes give us more runic power as resources to use. FYI DK's Icebound fortitude requires 600 defense to reduce 50% damage. Adding defense for DK tank in live is the way to go.

This is the only thing reading, just because it shows how terrible you are at this class.

[androlite]

I only know my role better than you. Tank is to hold aggro and reduce damage done + helping to regen health by deathstrike. Healing part is left to healer. We are not competing DPS with dpser. At least I hold aggro better than warrior or druid. I can easily pull protect pally aggro away from him when I DnD in frost when in a group situation.

[Foibles]

Or, I can gear like a good tank and hold threat just as well, while taking less damage and doing double or triple the damage you are.

You are doing it wrong.

[Wingwraith]

"Chills the target for 227 to 245 Frost damage and infects them with Frost Fever, a disease that deals periodic damage and reduces melee and ranged attack speed by 14% for 15 sec. Very high threat when in Frost Presence."

I'm sorry, I must be a little slow tonight. (I've had a few drinks)
What does this have to do with you being a DW'ing Blood Tank Death-tard?