Poll: Should Tier gear be gated and reserved only for raiders?

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  1. #21
    I don't see why they can't just make the tier pieces drop from the raids ala BC only with the LK tier pieces (any tier piece can go to any slot). Tier gear isn't needed for casuals if they have the same ilevel badge gear.

    Badges for tier gear = suck.
    Last edited by systemidx; 2010-09-28 at 07:04 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by grimkiller View Post
    Searched a bit, didn't find anything like this.
    My idea for Tier gear.

    T11 should be obtained through raiding the appropriate content and turning in a token drop (we've seen this).
    T12 should be obtained through raiding the appropriate content and turning in a token drop along with the previous tier's counterpart (new).

    If they follow this model, you can only obtain Tier gear via raiding, and by raiding each step of the way.
    You can't have T13 Shoulders if you don't have T12 Shoulders, which you cannot get until you have T11 Shoulders.

    Now I know what some of you are thinking.
    "You're nuts! I don't want to have to run old content! QQ plox and the like!" Whatever you crazy kids say nowadays.
    But by running current content, regardless of what Tier we are currently on, you can obtain off-set pieces via boss drops.
    It will just be the Tier gear that's limited to this gating system.
    since you can only run each raid once per week (no 10 + 25 runs), you can gear up your alts to get the Tier gear while it's current.

    I know, it sounds crazy and anti-friendly, but I feel Tier gear should be special and reserved only for raiders, not just the 5-man runners who are one tier behind.
    This. BLizzard, hire this man!

  3. #23
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizzi View Post
    Yeah... I actually didn't get a maxed toon until WoTLK.
    I got a max level toon myself, but I never got anywhere in terms of raiding until Wotlk.

    This is a horrid idea in my opinion.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Albert the fish View Post
    no this isn't a well thought out idea to be frank

    Raid Lead:"T11 head for DK,Rogue,Warlock..roll"
    DK:"/roll"
    RL:dude don't you have better than that already?
    DK: yeah but i want the t12 helm eventually don't i?
    RL: so you're taking someone else's hat away so that you can get a better one later, and you won't even wear this one
    DK: won't even bother enchanting it. just need it to upgrade
    First of all, this happens today.
    People trying to formulate their BiS lists do this ALL THE TIME.
    You don't equip, for example, the boots right away because your current ones help get you to your hit/exp values, but you still roll on the boots because you know once you get the belt and the neck, you can switch to the boots because the stats lost are mae up on those other 2 pieces.
    Common practice.
    Second of all, your scenario does not take into effect the guild loot views (assuming this is a guild run). If your guild is doing straight up /roll, then that's the choice and let the dice fall where they may. If there's a loot council, they most likely will go in favor of the better player (as far as threat/dps/healing output, raid attendance, attitude, guild commitment, etc).
    If it's a pug, well, pugs are pugs and if they do /roll then it is what it is.

    So, either way, your argument holds true with or without my Tiered items idea.

    ---------- Post added 2010-09-28 at 02:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ixuzcc View Post
    I got a max level toon myself, but I never got anywhere in terms of raiding until Wotlk.

    This is a horrid idea in my opinion.
    And with this Tiered outline, you can still raid and be effective.
    You just won't have tiered gear.

    Let's clear this up.
    Let's assume T12 Chest is iLvl 385 (yes, made up number).
    Let's assume you did not get a chest token to redeem for the T11 chest.
    Let's assume you enter T12 content with T11 off-set chest (same stats, no set bonus).
    T12 equivalent off-piece (385iLvl) chest drops off first boss.
    You can roll, wear it with pride, continue raiding.

    What you do not get to do is wear the T12 gear until you get the T11 equivalent, meaning you do not get the set bonuses and you do not get the specific armor graphics that should come along with Tiered sets to make them stand out and hold meaning. You get the same stats, you lack set bonus until you can complete past content and get your token to complete the upgrading process.

    My idea will not prohibit raiding in any way, shape or form.

  5. #25
    We already know Blizzard don't want to do this so please stop suggesting it, it is completely pointless to do so.

    Also set bonuses are huge and claiming that their lack won't stop you from raiding is frankly ridiculous.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    We already know Blizzard don't want to do this so please stop suggesting it, it is completely pointless to do so.

    Also set bonuses are huge and claiming that their lack won't stop you from raiding is frankly ridiculous.
    By making this post, I am not asking Blizz to change anything; I was merely getting an idea of what people thought.
    I never said set bonuses are not huge or worthless or anything.
    They are an added perk to the armor.
    But encounters (especially in normal mode) are not balanced around having a 4pc set bonus, or even a 2pc set bonus.
    If your guild won't let you raid because you don't have the 4pc, well, sorry to tell you but you must not be very good and require the crutch of extra stat boost to be considered.

    Set bonuses are not game breaking in any way, they merely make things a little easier.
    Will you get better output with them? Yes.
    Will it be so detrimental that your group cannot proceed through content? No. At least it shouldn't.
    If you wipe at 1% because a couple people didn't have set bonuses, I'm sure there are plenty of other things to consider correcting.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by grimkiller View Post
    If your guild won't let you raid because you don't have the 4pc, well, sorry to tell you but you must not be very good and require the crutch of extra stat boost to be considered.

    Set bonuses are not game breaking in any way, they merely make things a little easier.
    Will you get better output with them? Yes.
    Will it be so detrimental that your group cannot proceed through content? No. At least it shouldn't.
    If you wipe at 1% because a couple people didn't have set bonuses, I'm sure there are plenty of other things to consider correcting.
    If your guild will not let you raid because you do not have the set bonus then they are being sensible. Why waste time gearing this guy up when there are others of the same class with the same gear BUT also a very powerful bonus?
    They are not game breaking, but they are very VERY strong buffs. Why do you think that every single class wears its tier gear over other items with stats?

  8. #28
    I'm all for Tier gear only dropping in raids, but I don't like the idea of having to own the previous tier to get the current tier. This means if I quit for a month or two, I couldn't even get carried back to where the rest of the guild is! (QQ)
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by grimkiller View Post
    First of all, this happens today.
    People trying to formulate their BiS lists do this ALL THE TIME.
    You don't equip, for example, the boots right away because your current ones help get you to your hit/exp values, but you still roll on the boots because you know once you get the belt and the neck, you can switch to the boots because the stats lost are mae up on those other 2 pieces.
    Common practice.
    Second of all, your scenario does not take into effect the guild loot views (assuming this is a guild run). If your guild is doing straight up /roll, then that's the choice and let the dice fall where they may. If there's a loot council, they most likely will go in favor of the better player (as far as threat/dps/healing output, raid attendance, attitude, guild commitment, etc).
    If it's a pug, well, pugs are pugs and if they do /roll then it is what it is.

    So, either way, your argument holds true with or without my Tiered items idea.

    ---------- Post added 2010-09-28 at 02:10 PM ----------



    And with this Tiered outline, you can still raid and be effective.
    You just won't have tiered gear.

    Let's clear this up.
    Let's assume T12 Chest is iLvl 385 (yes, made up number).
    Let's assume you did not get a chest token to redeem for the T11 chest.
    Let's assume you enter T12 content with T11 off-set chest (same stats, no set bonus).
    T12 equivalent off-piece (385iLvl) chest drops off first boss.
    You can roll, wear it with pride, continue raiding.

    What you do not get to do is wear the T12 gear until you get the T11 equivalent, meaning you do not get the set bonuses and you do not get the specific armor graphics that should come along with Tiered sets to make them stand out and hold meaning. You get the same stats, you lack set bonus until you can complete past content and get your token to complete the upgrading process.

    My idea will not prohibit raiding in any way, shape or form.

    you're an idiot sir, with all due respect

    the difference is, if people roll on those things now it's a jackass move that the RL can can call shenanigans on and stop. in your model it makes perfect sense.

    after all if the t12 helm is BiS for that tier, but t11 isn't. well you better fucking steal that crappy t11 helm from some other poor bastard or you're severely limited next tier.it makes reasonable sense outside of just being a jackass for 5 more dps by changing what your 4th tier piece is later.
    also keep in mind.if my t11 sucks and i dont want the ...shoulder or whatever.then i don't get t12, or t13 or t14.
    i don't want to be penalized for the entire Cata because you can't think of anything better and blizzard wants to keep their system of having the first few tiers be only moderate in power with the last tiers being considerably more powerful.


    TBC managed to have gated raiding without resorting to this bumbling idea, there is no reason to implement a flawed idea to achieve the same result.
    Last edited by Albert the fish; 2010-09-30 at 10:25 AM.
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  10. #30
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    Im all in for dungeon sets, but as for raiding i would love to see the token system make a comeback.

  11. #31
    First off, this isn't going to work and nobody will support it. Sure, it sounds cool for raiders and they use the reasoning that it forces people to view content and maybe to learn a few mechanics before stepping into new content. But really it boils down to elitism and Blizz gave up on that when they decided to make money to support the future of the game.

    Nobody wants to jump through that many hoops to get an alt in raid when your guild just lost the only "(insert name here) buff" they had.

    And who cares if noobs want to run overpowered 5 mans all day? Why would a hardcore raider with a full roster give a ****?

    Finally there's just too many people like me (casual yet raid current) playing the game compared to lifeless old school players. As Blizz invested in bringing in new blood to extend the life of the game, they also made it possible for people that keep schedules to be able to raid. If they ended that now, your next expansion would be pretty cheap.

  12. #32
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    I understand you want people to move through raiding tiers in order and not skip and hope people carry them, but this would be a nightmare for raid and guild leaders.

    We don't want to have to drag our raids back through old content every time we need to gear up a new player or a reroll. We've had to do that in the past for attunements and the like, and its a waste of valuable raid time that can be used for actual progression content.

    Nevermind that you could get lucky with token drops and never see the appropriate tier piece, forcing you to do it multiple times.


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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    If your guild will not let you raid because you do not have the set bonus then they are being sensible. Why waste time gearing this guy up when there are others of the same class with the same gear BUT also a very powerful bonus?
    They are not game breaking, but they are very VERY strong buffs. Why do you think that every single class wears its tier gear over other items with stats?
    Since when? I intentionally avoided T10 on my Druid and was top heals in guild and most every run I did. Priests are hating the T12 bonuses on the way. There have been many bonuses that classes have avoided or players based on play style. These players are usually some of the best in game. Bonuses can amount to no more than crutches for retards in some cases.

    I've never had a guild look at a person for what tier bonuses they're carrying as opposed to being geared for their play style and assignment. Your statement was about the dumbest thing I've heard in a while being so generalized. Now if "Txx" gear was all about major stats instead of altering play styles or habits then yeah it would be more required. So really I can see a guild throwing a fit if your bonus is just amazing or crucial to your role but not everybody needs a perk to be good.

  14. #34
    It's a bad idea, OP. Primarily for the reasons people have stated about going back to old content to gear people up. As someone who can't raid now due to RL time constraints, I like the idea of being able continue to gear myself on my own schedule, so when I can come back to raiding, I'm not hopelessly far behind in gearing.

  15. #35
    Deleted
    Lets change it now for T12 you will need T11 for which you need T10 for which you need T9 for which you need T8 for which you need T7 for which you need T6 for which you need T5 for which you need T4 for which you need T3 for which you need T2 for which you need T1

    Then lets do this too:

    -In order to replace a gear piece the ilevel difference cannot be higher than 15 ilevels else people will be doing hcs while they are not full 359 yet, so people must progress
    -In order to join an arena season you need to have competed in the last season.
    -In order to to a raid you need to complete all dungeons and heroic dungeons in the game first

    Ok?
    Last edited by mmoc58074849ee; 2011-05-13 at 02:11 PM.

  16. #36
    As a Raid Leader this is a Terrible idea. I get the impression that you never Raided during Vanilla and TBC. The model of having to do the previous Tier of Raids for ANY REASON at all (Mostly limited to Gearing and Gating) is horrible, horrible design for end of expansion playability.

    I do not want to constantly have to run 1 or even 2 tiers back because I got a new recruit that needs Tier 11 and Tier 12 Tokens so they can use the Tier 13 gear. Nor do I want to take a break from the game, come back after a Tier or 2 and not be able to get Tier gear because the Raid leader will not run previous tiers.

  17. #37
    no the rng is bad enough and then uve got guildies and dkp systems ect on top of that

    so if we do it ur way all that will be doing wiill be slowly lowing down progression in a small guild with say 12 raiders and 3 are missing 4th teir tocken from t11 that means they have to sit and do chogall/neffy till they get the correct token to get the t12 counterpart which can hurt progression for said guild

    so i dont see bliz implementing this sorry

  18. #38
    I actually like the idea of needing a tier piece and a tier token to get the next version. Sort of like how the arena gear sets gets obtained atm. It could also help with people going back through old content, things would get boring, but at least you can get some more practice in, get some stuff for your alts and train the new guys.
    But maybe change it abit to stop people from crying:

    T12 and T13 tokens can upgrade T11 gear to T12, but T12 gear needs a T13 token. Makes it easier and less boring if you don't want to run old content, but ofc, after a while you have to go to the end raid instances to get the best tokens.
    Last edited by Drihan; 2011-05-13 at 04:11 PM.

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer eternalwhitemoon's Avatar
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    Well there's a problem with this.

    I have horrific, terrible roll luck. What happens if I can just never get the tier piece I need from this current tier? Say I never get T11 helm (for argument's sake). So, I can never have T12/13/14 helm, then? What if that's my BiS?

    This will never work.

    Your poll is also misleading. I think tier gear should be somewhat restricted to us high-end raiders, but not in the way you're suggesting. I actually don't mind the way the system is now, although I'd prefer to have only 2 pieces available via the vendor. :P
    Last edited by eternalwhitemoon; 2011-05-13 at 04:09 PM.

  20. #40
    there is a staggering flaw with this design.... you could still raid current content with out said old teir items...when a drop comes for say war, hunter, sham and one of them doesnt have the previous teir are they SoL on rolling or should they have to form a new raid group so they can go back and POSSIBLY get their token to drop to get an upgrade they are technically already in possession of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert the fish View Post
    no this isn't a well thought out idea to be frank

    Raid Lead:"T11 head for DK,Rogue,Warlock..roll"
    DK:"/roll"
    RL:dude don't you have better than that already?
    DK: yeah but i want the t12 helm eventually don't i?
    RL: so you're taking someone else's hat away so that you can get a better one later, and you won't even wear this one
    DK: won't even bother enchanting it. just need it to upgrade
    also the conterpart to my example is this.

    ---------- Post added 2011-05-13 at 11:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    If your guild will not let you raid because you do not have the set bonus then they are being sensible. Why waste time gearing this guy up when there are others of the same class with the same gear BUT also a very powerful bonus?
    They are not game breaking, but they are very VERY strong buffs. Why do you think that every single class wears its tier gear over other items with stats?
    holy pals and arms wars would have a word with you....the holy one is debateable now with the change but really unless you have some heroic teir pieces to replace non heroic items its questionable to lose that much haste. and arms wars set bonuses just suck to begin with...not to mention 4/5 peices have haste which is also terrible for arms.

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