Flexible Raid Lock System in 4.0.1

[Puro]

The biggest failures are people like you that do nothing but bitch and moan about the game, yet still give Blizzard your money and act like you are owed something.

Don't like it? Quit. Your e-friends probably won't care what happens to you.

Mr. E-thug, people who play this game also pays to play it, so they are allowed their own opinion.
Giving people ultimatums is a silly idea, it makes people think you are a ****head, and you're not that, are you?

"bitching and moaning", I guess I can say this officially, first time on the internet?

[Sounder]

Loot Opportunities per boss don't work because you can have good team farm one boss over and over and over and "sell" the last spot to others. eg: imagine you had a guild that had cleared ICC many times over. With a loot once per boss you could setup a farm group to sell slots to farm for DBW or something. Keep killing same content over and over selling that last couple of slots. This is why loot once per boss would never work.

If it was their intention to permit my scenario (players who want to play together but can't due to raid locks) while preventing yours (spot farming) they could allow only a 2nd lootless kill per boss per week, and put a max on the number of "saved to this boss" players in a group, eg 40%. It's the same logic that led them to allow pve->pvp and horde<->alliance transfers: taking down the barriers to friends playing together.

[Flashback Gordon]

So essentially what this means is that I won't be able to clear ICC with my ten man guild on Tuesday and then clear it with my 25 man guild on Thursday?

[Elica]

Speaking of short-sighted and lazy designs, the biggest and most glaring shortcoming of your proposed solution is that top guilds would just spend their free time selling loot to others every night once they've cleared the content for the week. It already happens to some extent, but the problem would be exacerbated by allowing anyone to kill any boss as many times as they wanted each week.

---------- Post added 2010-10-01 at 08:33 PM ----------



This is very selective reasoning on your part. Tons of gold is the only motivation many players need.

Seriously, are you kidding? Do you really think guilds would clear instances, without having any loot for themselves at all, not even for off-specs, just to make a tiny amount of extra gold? Raiding is not expensive, in fact it is profitable, and it will only get cheaper in Cata due to how the new guild perks work, and also due to how the Glyph system was changed.

Selective reasoning? I think you're greatly underestimating how much gold raiders make by just raiding and selling BoE items.

"Top guilds would just spend their free time selling loot", wow man, you blow my mind if you think top guilds need to spend their time clearing instances with no possible goal but gold, when it is already so profitable just to raid. I know of completely casual raiding guilds with several hundred thousand gold in their guild bank, and perhaps double that value in materials.

Selling items now? Yeah, perhaps, but only because they have some members wanting specific item drops during the run. When there are no items in sight, no way.

[Laca]

Why are most of you people so worried about ICC and its loot? It has already been out for almost one year, it's time to move on and think about how this new system will affect the new raids instead. It makes things way less confusing...

Personally I think this change is great for PuGing people, but it really won't change established raiding guilds alot, will it?

[Deleted]

hmmm no shadowmourne for me in icc 10? lame

[sidebar]

Seriously, are you kidding? Do you really think guilds would clear instances, without having any loot for themselves at all, not even for off-specs, just to make a tiny amount of extra gold?

Yes .. and it's not a tiny amount. LK kills were going for 50k just for 10man.

How about GDKP runs that net 4-8k per player? cha-ching.

I was offered 100k for a DBW just 3 days ago ... and he even said: "Your going to replace that so you might as well take my gold."

So yea, you have no idea what you are talking about ... best to just quit while your behind.

[Elica]

Yes .. and it's not a tiny amount. LK kills were going for 50k just for 10man.

How about GDKP runs that net 4-8k per player? cha-ching.

I was offered 100k for a DBW just 3 days ago ... and he even said: "Your going to replace that so you might as well take my gold."

So yea, you have no idea what you are talking about ... best to just quit while your behind.

Players like you amaze me. Your short-sightedness does not allow you to see how quickly gold would lose its value under those circumstances. We're (or at least, I am) talking about the long term effects, and it is crystal clear to me that guilds simply wouldn't bother doing instance clears, with random drop chances AND no items for themselves, just to stockpile gold which they could never spend, all the while thousands of gold keep rolling in from BoE auctions gotten from guild raids. There aren't enough gold sinks in the game to make it a profitable business in Cataclysm, when the highest currency is, and always has been, time.

I'd understand if Blizzard added some ultra deluxe ferry mounts costing 100k a pop, or something similar, but right now it's way to easy to make gold and way too hard to spend it.

[draynay]

when they first talked about this I thought it was a terrible idea

now that they've said a bit more, I still think its a terrible idea, what happens in the scenario they describe where your 25man guild is short a couple people, oops, sorry we're gonna swap to 10man and continue, have fun 8-13 people who don't get to go along, if you're not in the top 10 of your 25man guild now, you're gquitting and moving on

for somebody like me, who plays a ton of alts and prefers 10mans anyways, this actually works in my favor a bit, but I don't think the reality of 25man raiding is anything like what blizzard is imagining it is

[Eggimannd]

Can someone clarify this for me. So both 10 man raids and 25 man raids are going to drop the same quality of loot?

Then what the hell is going to be the point of doing 25 mans? Wouldn't it be much more efficient for good guilds to split up into 10 mans so more people can get gear?

[nemex]

You may also not join someone else's raid if they have defeated a Heroic encounter.

So, with this logic, unless it's worded incorrectly, in our heroic ICC 25-raids, we cannot make ANY subs and must do the entire lockout with the same 25 people? I hope it's a clerical error.

[draynay]

ZA maybe?

[thebbandit]

I am absolutely loving this news. Best changes I have heard about this system yet! This new lockout system is going to alleviate a lot of the problems that people have filling raids where there are bosses down.

[Laringar]

The ability to continue a raid where bosses are down is nice... but applying it to 10 and 25 ICC and RS while the loot tables are still different is crap. It's going to be ridiculously hard to get the Spyglass now for my toons that still need it, because it's not worth wasting your lockout on anything short of 25 man.

[Jiai]

The ability to continue a raid where bosses are down is nice... but applying it to 10 and 25 ICC and RS while the loot tables are still different is crap. It's going to be ridiculously hard to get the Spyglass now for my toons that still need it, because it's not worth wasting your lockout on anything short of 25 man.

I agree, but they want some community feedback before the release, and they probably can't afford to rebalance the whole instances / loot.

[seventhsin]

I am only confused about one thing at the moment, which after glancing through all the replies, I can not see a definitive answer.

You may also not join someone else's raid if they have defeated a Heroic encounter.

I am hoping this is just poorly worded on Blizzard's part, because if this is what they actually intend, this will only cause problems.

EXAMPLE: Your guild is doing a 25 man heroic raid. 30 guild members were interested in participating, but obviously only 25 can be in the raid at one given time. You are asked to sit out, and you are not saved to any raid ID or bosses. The raid kills the first boss on heroic. A raid member has to leave for whatever reason.
QUESTION: Are you able to join the raid to replace him, or are you shit-out-of-luck?

The way Blizzard has worded this phrase implies that once a raid has defeated an encounter on heroic, they would be required to have the exact same 25 people to continue, without being able to even swap in guild members who are not saved to anything. Again, I really hope that Blizzard just mis-worded this. Being required to use the exact same 25 people to complete an entire raid instance over the span of multiple days will cause massive headaches even for the most coordinated high end guilds. RL stuff happens, and there is almost certainly bound to be many instances where someone won't be able to have 100% attendance throughout the week. So what, the raid is expected to try and continue with only 24 people?

This would greatly increase the value of heroic gear and since in the cata raids both 10 and 25 man loot will be the same having heroic gear with this system means you're part of a group that stuck together and finished it. It rewards the hardcore gamers to distinguish themselves from the casual players without leaving the casual players so far behind that they feel left out.

[Granyala]

Great change!

So, with this logic, unless it's worded incorrectly, in our heroic ICC 25-raids, we cannot make ANY subs and must do the entire lockout with the same 25 people? I hope it's a clerical error.

No if YOU have an heroic ID you may not join ANOTHER heroic ID. If you have no HC-ID you may of course join your group on day 2.

[Salaction160]

So what about Achievements??? If i kill, Sindragosa 25 Heroic on Wednesday, There's no way i can do her again that week on 10 man normal to get the achievement, All You Can Eat?? I better get going to do it this week lol.

[anyaka21]

all very very complicated, not really sure if I understood all of it and the differences between regular and heroic raids, and how they are different.

The only issues that I think are going to be insanely important is the tuning between 10 and 25 man raids. It's going to be next to impossible to tune fights so they are equal between the 2. And there will probably be a split between which bosses are better doable in 10man, and ones that are easier to do in 25 player modes. Which is what I think most of the top guilds will be doing constantly...starting as a 25 man, then break when they get to a fight that's easier in 10man, then reform for 25 when that particular boss is easier.

[Deleted]

So, with this logic, unless it's worded incorrectly, in our heroic ICC 25-raids, we cannot make ANY subs and must do the entire lockout with the same 25 people? I hope it's a clerical error.

If your Heroic 25-player raid defeats the first four bosses of Icecrown Citadel on Heroic, then they may not split up into two 10-player raids and continue to fight in Heroic difficulty. You may also not join someone else's raid if they have defeated a Heroic encounter.

There is some very selective quoting going on. Those two sentences must be read together. That's what that "also" means. When you start heroic progression, you are locked to that raid.