The Bear Guide - Cataclysm Edition

[Clawtrocity]

How exactly is maul our highest damaging ability? I realize you said it was damaging abilities over time, but right now Maul hits 1 target for about half as much as Mangle. Meaning that they are about equal as Mangle has a 6 second cooldown and maul has a 3 second cooldown, but with the berserk proc + ability you get a hell of a lot more mangles in. Unless you're factoring in the glyph of maul or some lucky crits for maul I don't see it happening. I just did ICC and nearly all my fights had mangle as the top ability.

EDIT: Not to mention maul costs twice as much as mangle so it isn't always available.

[Infernix17]

How exactly is maul our highest damaging ability? I realize you said it was damaging abilities over time, but right now Maul hits 1 target for about half as much as Mangle. Meaning that they are about equal as Mangle has a 6 second cooldown and maul has a 3 second cooldown, but with the berserk proc + ability you get a hell of a lot more mangles in. Unless you're factoring in the glyph of maul or some lucky crits for maul I don't see it happening. I just did ICC and nearly all my fights had mangle as the top ability.

EDIT: Not to mention maul costs twice as much as mangle so it isn't always available.

Maul scales with Attack Power. Vengeance gives a shit load of Attack Power. You should be seeing the same numbers from Maul and Mangle when Vengeance is low and way higher numbers from Maul when Vengeance is high.

Rage shouldn't be an issue on any boss in ICC. I'm usually always around 70-100.

Also, fights like Lich King where there are a lot of Adds, Maul is far superior.

[axxey]

I didn't do any math, i hate math, i went and tested it in a practical fashion on my stam chest. Without mark/kings 275 health is more, with that 5% 18stam is more.

Example from my piece of paper sitting next to me(i tested in ICC and out because 30% scaling margins) I have:

87824HP with 18stam on my chest and mark of the wild.
87818HP with 275health on my chest and mark of the wild.

84119HP with 18stam on my chest and no 5% stats.
84126HP with 275health on my chest and no 5% stats.

Something either leather equip, enchants or gems scales differently to your "formula". Trinkets were the only things i could find that matched your formula of 15.159375HP per stam cleanly(didn't check everything).

[serruf]

The proc from Vengeance is really good.

Thank you

[Yohassakura]

I didn't do any math, i hate math, i went and tested it in a practical fashion on my stam chest. Without mark/kings 275 health is more, with that 5% 18stam is more.

Example from my piece of paper sitting next to me(i tested in ICC and out because 30% scaling margins) I have:

87824HP with 18stam on my chest and mark of the wild.
87818HP with 275health on my chest and mark of the wild.

84119HP with 18stam on my chest and no 5% stats.
84126HP with 275health on my chest and no 5% stats.

Something either leather equip, enchants or gems scales differently to your "formula". Trinkets were the only things i could find that matched your formula of 15.159375HP per stam cleanly(didn't check everything).

Hmm, I tested out a ring and this was the data that i collected:

Bear form, unbuffed, testing ring, in dalaran

171 stamina ring, (with gem), hp = 66612
94 stamina ring, (without gem), hp = 65492

77 stamina difference between rings.
1,120hp difference between rings.

77 Stamina (With formula of 14.4375*) = 1111.6875hp difference

Without either ring

64142hp

Compared against 94 stamina ring:

  65492
- 64142
=  1350

94*1.25*1.1*1.05(*10)= 1357.125

Compared against 171 stamina ring:

  66612
- 64142
=  2470

171*1.25*1.1*1.05(*10)= 2468.8125

Caster form, unbuffed testing ring, in dalaran

171 stamina ring, (with gem), hp = 48452
94 stamina ring, (without gem), hp = 47682

(77 stamina difference between rings)

  48452
- 47682
=   770

My best guess would be that there's just rounding errors.
- Although i went a bit further into this and started doing MotW in caster form;

Item difference with motw - Caster form

77 Stamina difference
171 stamina ring = 50492 hp
 94 stamina ring = 49682 hp

810hp difference

77*1.05 = 80.85 (round up = 81) -> (*10 for hp) = 810hp difference

Without motw - Caster form

77 Stamina difference
171 stamina ring = 48452 hp
 94 stamina ring = 47682 hp

770hp difference

So again, my best guess would be rounding errors, is making the huge difference of < 10hp

[axxey]

Well, the "rounding errors" in practicality make 18 stam return more HP with mark of the wild on than 275HP to chest.

Did another quick test for you to show what i mean by items not matching the formula, tell me if I've somehow had a brain anneurism, all tested with MotW on.
67552HP(still have 275health on, 18stam was 5 more)
if i take my legs off(gangrenous277) i then have
58822HP

67552 - 58822 = 8730HP difference
legs are 263 +55(enchant) +90(3stam gems) = 408stam on my legs.

8730 / 408stam = 21.397HP per point of stam on my legs

[Clawtrocity]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...roic-Gear-List

Trying to make a practical list of all the gear we can get prior to heroics. If you wanted to add this link in the main post it'd be great for future reference and so we can have one concise post that contains all relevant information.

[Yohassakura]

Did another quick test for you to show what i mean by items not matching the formula, tell me if I've somehow had a brain anneurism, all tested with MotW on.
67552HP(still have 275health on, 18stam was 5 more)
if i take my legs off(gangrenous277) i then have
58822HP

67552 - 58822 = 8730HP difference
legs are 263 +55(enchant) +90(3stam gems) = 408stam on my legs.

8730 / 408stam = 21.397HP per point of stam on my legs

Leather Specialization - "Increases your primary attribute by 5% while wearing Leather in all armor slots... Stamina while in Bear Form"

This means that:

YOU MUST BE WEARING FULL LEATHER ITEMS IN ALL SLOTS - IE YOU JUST BROKE THE 5% STAT INCREASE.

You didn't just minus what your legs had on, but a nice 5% of EVERYTHING.

So: (Total Stamina (except for the base stamina i believe) - Leg armor Stamina^increased by all stat modifiers) - 5% stats because you just broke the leather specialization.

I'll repeat myself again to make sure i'm clear:

So you're not just losing what's on your leg piece, but you're losing the 5% stat bonus from leather specialization, which affects your total stamina that you would normally have, this would be >approximately< the same amount as buffing/debuff motw, which i'd assume is 2.4-2.5k or so.

Perhaps if you still don't understand, you could post all of your stats (hp, stamina - both buffed and buffed if you choose any buffs), all of your conditions (buffs), and your base stats (without talents, professions and with no armor on).

I could then try to carefully explain everything if you so wish, although it'd just take up time, so i'd rather not if you'd just take my word for it.

[axxey]

ahh, thanks, didn't realise wearing nothing in a slot would break it. 18stam > 275HP still.

[Infernix17]

Looks like we are getting screwed.

They are nerfing us quite a bit:

• Bear Form -- Stamina bonus lowered from 20% to 10% and Heart of the Wild health bonus from 10% to 6%. Bear health should be close to plate tank health with this change.

• Savage Defense is massively overpowered on beta and has been dealt with accordingly. Many of the reports of beta raid bosses two-shotting tanks were because that was how much damage the bosses needed to do in order to challenge Feral tanks. With less damage absorbed, the boss damage can be adjusted downwards. We've reduced the multiplier for attack power on the absorption effect (from 65% to 35%, still modified by mastery) and it no longer procs from periodic critical hits.

• Survival Instincts -- Damage reduction changed from 60% to 50%. Cooldown reduced from 5 minutes to 2 minutes. Duration still 12 seconds.

TL;DR - Vengeance + Savage Defense is OP, so they are nerfing it down. They are scaling our health down to have the same health pool as other tanks.

The surivival Instincts change really isn't that much of a nerf. They changed everyones cooldowns from 60% to 50%. They reduced the CD by 3 minutes, which is more of a buff than anything.

[Deleted]

Its the SD nerf that bites. As 'exochaft' rightly pointed out in another thread, reduced % of AP is also combined with reduced HP, therefore less Vengeance, therefore again less AP. So its being nerfed on two fronts. I'm sure they will balance it, my fear is how long will it take to balance.

[rated]

Its the SD nerf that bites. As 'exochaft' rightly pointed out in another thread, reduced % of AP is also combined with reduced HP, therefore less Vengeance, therefore again less AP. So its being nerfed on two fronts. I'm sure they will balance it, my fear is how long will it take to balance.

Obviously there's going to be another change. As blizzard said it was massively OP so whats the best thing to do in a beta setting ? Severely nerf it then test it again and work your way back up until you feel its balanced.

[Deleted]

imo this last nerf is necessary, as absorbing at least half the attack of raid bosses almost each time they manage to hit us is really overpowered. But i dont like the fact that they openly want us to have the same hp, mitigation and cooldowns as other tanks. tanks should be balanced overall, but every1 having the same cooldown with different names, bringing the same debuffs and being generally equal in each situation removes any spirit of appartenance to our class (and the same is true for other tanks). it would be much better if every1 has his strong and weak sides and that there could be minor (but not crucial) advantages for each tanking class in certain occasions, but that those differences are very minor in terms of overall survivability and more a matter of gameplay style.

[Bysu]

I'm also concerned about the fact of how this nerf wave will turn bear mastery into a mediocre stat, given how it boosts the base absorption value multiplicatively. So all in all they nerfed SD base value, HP pool values (hence vengeance and back to SD), and also mastery (value has been pretty much halved)... Were bears really that much overpowered?.

[Infernix17]

I'm also concerned about the fact of how this nerf wave will turn bear mastery into a mediocre stat, given how it boosts the base absorption value multiplicatively. So all in all they nerfed SD base value, HP pool values (hence vengeance and back to SD), and also mastery (value has been pretty much halved)... Were bears really that much overpowered?.

Yes. The nerf was needed. Other tanks would get 1 or 2 shot whereas we would never die just because Blizzard wanted to see what it would take for us to die.

We are now equal with other tanks, I would still say we come out as the #1 tank, but its very close.

[Bysu]

Yes. The nerf was needed. Other tanks would get 1 or 2 shot whereas we would never die just because Blizzard wanted to see what it would take for us to die.

We are now equal with other tanks, I would still say we come out as the #1 tank, but its very close.

The nerf on SD is completely understandable, no doubt on that, having a bear myself I feel like I can solo most raid bosses with 90%+ physical attacks/damage if there was no enrage timer involved. The thing is that, as many others think, this "balance" wasn't achieved through small adjustments but instead by means of a huge downgrade. I even wonder if they did their math on SD values before or after the HP pool nerf, since it indirectly affects SD absorb amount.

All in all I think devs are in for a tough one here, because it's not just about modeling the mechanic correctly, in which case they may have found the ideal values, but how about raid boss mechanics, that could for example limit the scaling on vengeance hence making SD underpowered compared to standard shield blocks?, are they gonna design boss fights around that?, or even take into account the ramp up time of vengeance itself while other tanks can block at 100% "efficiency" right off the bat.

Given the changes made, it would seem like in order for SD to be on par with regular shield blocks the bear should have about as much attack power as 80-90% of the average melee hit (damage wise) of the target. This is something that of course can't be attained without vengeance, and even with it stacked to full, I'm not sure if it makes the cut (considering reduced HP pools, and no 30% buffs from ICC or w/e).

I can only hope that these new values can be tested thoroughly in beta before the next patch is released, because as usual, I have the feeling that once implemented in Live servers it will be just forgotten even if it's still sub par to other tanks.

[robaroo]

I have read through all the post and must say due to all the various numbers, im still a very confused yogi!.

Can someone quickly tell me what my goal is stat wise...example what to reforge. Seems most of my gear i have to remove hit, crit or haste.

Current stats:
Hit Chance +8.45%
Crit 23.71%
Mastery 8.0

As for rotations i have taken the easy route (lazy fooker i know)

Single target:
/cast Pulverize(Bear Form)
/cast Mangle(Bear Form)
/cast Maul(Bear Form)
/cast Swipe(Bear Form)
/use !Lacerate(Bear Form)

Aoe:
#ShowTooltip
/castsequence reset=6 Swipe(Bear Form), Mangle(Bear Form), Lacerate, Lacerate, Lacerate

[Infernix17]

I have read through all the post and must say due to all the various numbers, im still a very confused yogi!.

Can someone quickly tell me what my goal is stat wise...example what to reforge. Seems most of my gear i have to remove hit, crit or haste.

Current stats:
Hit Chance +8.45%
Crit 23.71%
Mastery 8.0

As for rotations i have taken the easy route (lazy fooker i know)

Single target:
/cast Pulverize(Bear Form)
/cast Mangle(Bear Form)
/cast Maul(Bear Form)
/cast Swipe(Bear Form)
/use !Lacerate(Bear Form)

Aoe:
#ShowTooltip
/castsequence reset=6 Swipe(Bear Form), Mangle(Bear Form), Lacerate, Lacerate, Lacerate

You want to remove all haste for Mastery and thats about it. If you have 65%+ crit fully raid buffed then you can reforge crit into Mastery.

If you are around 15-18% Mastery then you will be good.

[robaroo]

Plain and simple....thanx Infernix

[Dinacor]

Somebody has probably already said it, but Glyphs of Thorns isn't worthwhile atm, whether it's a bug or intentional, Thorns takes you out of bear form when cast. "Heal me for a second I'm casting thorns" doesn't go down well with the healers <.<