1. #801
    Blademaster
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    US. Emerald Dream
    Posts
    31
    Mithfin I dont quite follow your reasoning behind the loss of energy. Unfortunately i dont have the 4 piece bonus available yet hopefully soon. Please go into more detail as any new information is appreciated. I follow the basics of the DPE figures for ferocious bite vs. shred however i do agree that looking at the whole picture spamming shred early in the fight = overal dps gain due to the fact that it negates a lot of downtime on rip and rake and savage roar. However im still wondering if that applies at <25% boss health because a full energy ferocious bite while it reapplies rip..it may allow rake or SR to fall off, and a glyphed FB may be a DPE loss but allow more shreds and cps which keep all "dots" rolling...please explain in greater detail if you know the correct choice as i am not quite as educated in figures as some.
    Last edited by Arrockk; 2011-02-12 at 11:12 PM.

  2. #802
    What mithfin is asking is why you start the fight by popping Berserk and Tiger's Fury without getting rid of the energy you have first?

    "4.)Opening without Ferocious bite consistently yields higher dps. Hence..FF..Feral charge..Tiger's fury..berserk....mangle..savage roar..rake..ravage..shred if needed to get to 5 cps then rip."

    That's about 180 energy wasted and the fight hardly started.

  3. #803
    Blademaster
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    US. Emerald Dream
    Posts
    31
    The cost for feral charge is 10 energy..so FF then feral charge leaves you at 90 energy..popping tigers fury and beserk pushes your energy to 120 due to talents..when you follow with mangle..your general 35 combo point cost is then reduced by half..so not only does your mangle cost you roughly 18 energy only but its damage is also increased by 15% and savage roar is reduced from 25 to 13...if you waited to pop tigers fury and berserk you lose 10 energy to feral charge..35 to mangle-15% increased damage..and savage roar costs 25 energy..so..to me it seems 6 one way half dozen the other but i prefer the increased damage on mangle..if you think you can pull more dps out of the opening please tell im eager for new ideas...maybe popping tigers and berserk directly after mangle and before savage roar is a dps increase..i need to sit down and do math...

  4. #804
    I ussually start with Feral Charge - Fearie Fire - Mangle - Rake - Ravage - (shred if not yet at 5 CP) - Tiger's Fury + Pot + Berserk - Rip - Shred - Savage Roar - moar shred spam - normal priority list.

    Note:
    - Tiger's Fury does ussually energy cap me here but I got the idea it isn't much, is there a addon that can track energy capping/waisted energy?
    - The Pot + Berserk I only use when the boss doesn't require a burn phase within the next 3 minutes.
    - I delay Savage Roar by pretty much, but i feel this works better for me not in terms of DPS but also to enlighten "start of encounter stress" as far as that is applicable.
    - Our tanks are overgearing me the few times i raid because i am social at this time so i can manage this threat wise, other people in other situations could find this a problem.

  5. #805
    The thing is, by popping TF at 90 energy you're wasting ~30 energy from TF. EDIT: Thieme we posted at the same time, this was mainly directed at Arrockk.

    I usually charge -> FFF -> mangle -> shred -> TF -> (berserk+trinket) -> rake -> shred up to 5cp -> rip -> ravage! -> 2cp savage roar (due to ravage! always critting). Not sure it's the best way but i feel more confortable doing this rather than wasting energy.
    "Seeping crest of turbidity, arrogant vessel of lunacy.
    Boil forth and deny, grow numb and flicker, disrupting sleep.
    Crawling queen of iron, eternally self-destructing doll of mud.
    Unite, repulse. Fill with soil and know your own powerlessness."


    Primera - Elemental Shaman - <Vedo La Gente Morta> - Pozzo dell'Eternità IT

  6. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by gollie View Post
    What mithfin is asking is why you start the fight by popping Berserk and Tiger's Fury without getting rid of the energy you have first?

    "4.)Opening without Ferocious bite consistently yields higher dps. Hence..FF..Feral charge..Tiger's fury..berserk....mangle..savage roar..rake..ravage..shred if needed to get to 5 cps then rip."

    That's about 180 energy wasted and the fight hardly started.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrockk View Post
    The cost for feral charge is 10 energy..so FF then feral charge leaves you at 90 energy..popping tigers fury and beserk pushes your energy to 120 due to talents..when you follow with mangle..your general 35 combo point cost is then reduced by half..so not only does your mangle cost you roughly 18 energy only but its damage is also increased by 15% and savage roar is reduced from 25 to 13...if you waited to pop tigers fury and berserk you lose 10 energy to feral charge..35 to mangle-15% increased damage..and savage roar costs 25 energy..so..to me it seems 6 one way half dozen the other but i prefer the increased damage on mangle..if you think you can pull more dps out of the opening please tell im eager for new ideas...maybe popping tigers and berserk directly after mangle and before savage roar is a dps increase..i need to sit down and do math...

    You're losing the 60 energy from KotJ from popping TF when you have ~full energy. The 20 energy loss from using TF and Berserk concurrently is negligible and negated by the 15% damage buff. Using Ravage! during Berserk is only an energy loss if you end Berserk with energy remaining. Using Savage Roar during TF is a DPS loss due to the GCD and energy spent during TF not directly benefiting from the 15% buff. Using Mangle during TF is suboptimal because of its poor DPE compared to Shred, Rip, or Rake.

    Note: The following is all assuming no 4pc T11 and using Unheeded Warning.

    My guess is
    Code:
    FF/FC > Mangle > Rake > SR > TF > Berserk or Shred once then Berserk* > Shred* > Ravage! > Shred > Rip > Shred spam
    
    *to avoid capping energy
    might be closer to optimal, but it only leaves 5 GCDs to get Rip in on TF's 6 second duration. Any unlucky misses, dodges, or lack of crits would cripple this opening. Savage Roar so early is primarily to bleed off excess energy, but white damage benefiting from SR, TF, and Unheeded Warning could be a DPS increase. Rake does not benefit from TF because we are trying to maximize Unheeded Warning's proc.

    Alternatively, to ensure 5 CPs for Rip during TF, Savage Roar could be delayed until after Tiger's Fury ends.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiru View Post
    I don't PvP much, but I fought a Mage in Tol Barad one time. It was kind of like playing Wheel of Fortune. Except every space was Bankrupt.

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by Thieme View Post
    I ussually start with Feral Charge - Fearie Fire - Mangle - Rake - Ravage - (shred if not yet at 5 CP) - Tiger's Fury + Pot + Berserk - Rip - Shred - Savage Roar - moar shred spam - normal priority list.
    You should use the potion before combat starts, so you can use another later on.

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    You should use the potion before combat starts, so you can use another later on.
    Depends on fight but yeah ur right.

  9. #809
    Blademaster
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    US. Emerald Dream
    Posts
    31
    Leinie I think you might be correct. The only fault i see is casting rake before tigers fury as the extra 15% damage would be a large buff to rake. So im thinking FF to Feral Charge..Mangle..Savage roar which equals 70 energy ..then popping tigers fury and beserk plus your haste should get you to about 100 and change energy following with rake ..shread to 5 cps and rip..etc..I think this may make the best use of the 15% damage buff and energy ..ill play on the practice dummy today and see what i can find.

  10. #810
    Nothing says you can't reapply the Rake while TF is up. It is up for 6 seconds so you have plenty of time to refresh it.

  11. #811
    Deleted
    It's perfectly fine if you get 2 ticks of un-TFed rake then clip it. (thats my usual opening)

    something like charge+ff - mangle - rake - mangle - tf - rip - ravage! - berserk - SR - mangle - rake - shredspam

    exact order can vary abit depending on crits

    it's quite hectic tho, esp if the boss is being moved to the tankspot as well, so often something messes up a bit :P
    just practice it a ton and it'll become 2nd nature eventually
    Last edited by mmoc2e7b040398; 2011-02-14 at 12:28 AM.

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir View Post
    something like charge+ff - mangle - rake - mangle - tf - rip - ravage! - berserk - SR - mangle - rake - shredspam
    I assume you've got 4 piece T11?

    Does anyone know the damage reduction from armour of a raid boss? I suspect it is approximately 29%, but I have absolutely nothing to back that up and neither can I find anything about it anywhere.

  13. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrockk View Post
    Leinie I think you might be correct. The only fault i see is casting rake before tigers fury as the extra 15% damage would be a large buff to rake. So im thinking FF to Feral Charge..Mangle..Savage roar which equals 70 energy ..then popping tigers fury and beserk plus your haste should get you to about 100 and change energy following with rake ..shread to 5 cps and rip..etc..I think this may make the best use of the 15% damage buff and energy ..ill play on the practice dummy today and see what i can find.
    Quote Originally Posted by gollie View Post
    Nothing says you can't reapply the Rake while TF is up. It is up for 6 seconds so you have plenty of time to refresh it.
    When I was typing the post originally I had a 2nd Rake after TF to clip during the Berserk, but then took it out before posting because I wasn't sure if using the GCD during Unheeded Warning would a DPS increase or neutral. After doing a little napkin math I believe that fitting the extra Rake in there would be a DPS increase, so:
    Code:
    FF/FC > Mangle > Rake > SR > TF > Berserk or Shred once then Berserk* > Rake > Ravage! > Shred > Rip > Shred spam
    
    *to avoid capping energy
    Again, assuming no 4pT11 and Unheeded Warning.

    @Mihir: Are you able to consistently get that last Rake in with Tiger's Fury still up? Looks like you'd be casting it just as TF falls off. Wouldn't it be better to delay SR another couple of GCDs to better ensure you got that Rake up under 3x SotP and TF? I don't have 4pT11 so I have yet to try to tackle that opener.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiru View Post
    I don't PvP much, but I fought a Mage in Tol Barad one time. It was kind of like playing Wheel of Fortune. Except every space was Bankrupt.

  14. #814
    I prefer prepot>FFF+Charge>Mangle>Shred>Shred>TF+Zerk>Rake>Ravage>SR then do normal rotation.

    Edit: A little more reason why. It's a little crit/OoC dependant so you may need to hit TF/Zerk a little early, but with good RNG I've been able to push past 41k burst, but typically its around 30-36k burst.
    Last edited by Shaazaam; 2011-02-14 at 03:51 AM.

  15. #815
    charge+ff - mangle - rake - mangle - tf - rip - ravage! - berserk - SR - mangle - rake - shredspam
    I don't have my T11 so I haven't been able to try this. I'm wondering how much energy are you sitting at after you Berserk?

  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaazaam View Post
    I prefer prepot>FFF+Charge>Mangle>Shred>Shred>TF+Zerk>Rake>Ravage>SR then do normal rotation.

    Edit: A little more reason why. It's a little crit/OoC dependant so you may need to hit TF/Zerk a little early, but with good RNG I've been able to push past 41k burst, but typically its around 30-36k burst.
    Delaying your first Rake so much means your first two Shreds aren't at their best.

    I tried a few different variations and I now prefer to hit Rake right after Mangle, Shred once or twice before starting TF+Zerk and then just refresh Rake before TF wears off. I know clipping isn't good but this is one of the few exceptions I feel is more beneficial overall.

  17. #817
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaazaam View Post
    I prefer prepot>FFF+Charge>Mangle>Shred>Shred>TF+Zerk>Rake>Ravage>SR then do normal rotation.

    Edit: A little more reason why. It's a little crit/OoC dependant so you may need to hit TF/Zerk a little early, but with good RNG I've been able to push past 41k burst, but typically its around 30-36k burst.
    I forgot about Rip right after Zerk...how embarrassing.

  18. #818
    Isn't Berserk cancelling the TF-Buff anymore? Did I miss something?

  19. #819
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    3,346
    it does still cnacel the buff and you loose the 15% extra damage. i do think you can keep the 20 bones energy,

    i personaly go for
    charge / FFF > Magle > Savage raor (to dump enegery before TF) > TF > rake > shred > shred > rip > bezerk > ...

    ---------- Post added 2011-02-14 at 09:33 AM ----------

    i was wondering, isnt engineering the best profesion as apart from the ~80 agility they also got those cogwheel gems in thier helms ?
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  20. #820
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by njorde View Post
    I don't have my T11 so I haven't been able to try this. I'm wondering how much energy are you sitting at after you Berserk?
    Usually 95-100 (not specced into primal madness atm, as i prefer the increased survivability from perseverance/nurturing instinct)

    ---------- Post added 2011-02-14 at 09:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Leinie View Post
    When I was typing the post originally I had a 2nd Rake after TF to clip during the Berserk, but then took it out before posting because I wasn't sure if using the GCD during Unheeded Warning would a DPS increase or neutral. After doing a little napkin math I believe that fitting the extra Rake in there would be a DPS increase, so:
    Code:
    FF/FC > Mangle > Rake > SR > TF > Berserk or Shred once then Berserk* > Rake > Ravage! > Shred > Rip > Shred spam
    
    *to avoid capping energy
    Again, assuming no 4pT11 and Unheeded Warning.

    @Mihir: Are you able to consistently get that last Rake in with Tiger's Fury still up? Looks like you'd be casting it just as TF falls off. Wouldn't it be better to delay SR another couple of GCDs to better ensure you got that Rake up under 3x SotP and TF? I don't have 4pT11 so I have yet to try to tackle that opener.
    Yes.. i might sometimes switch rake with the mangle before it if the timing is a bit off tho.

    Code:
    [19:30:10.132] Mihir casts Rake on Halfus Wyrmbreaker
    [19:30:10.446] Halfus Wyrmbreaker afflicted by Rake from Mihir
    [19:30:10.614] Mihir Rake Halfus Wyrmbreaker *3123*
    [19:30:12.408] Mihir gains Tiger's Fury from Mihir
    [19:30:13.516] Mihir Rake Halfus Wyrmbreaker *15770*
    [19:30:16.544] Mihir Rake Halfus Wyrmbreaker 7656
    [19:30:17.589] Mihir casts Rake on Halfus Wyrmbreaker
    [19:30:17.683] Halfus Wyrmbreaker's Rake is refreshed by Mihir
    [19:30:17.774] Mihir Rake Halfus Wyrmbreaker *3692*
    [19:30:18.402] Mihir's Tiger's Fury fades from Mihir
    Last edited by mmoc2e7b040398; 2011-02-14 at 09:04 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •