The Cat Guide - 4.3

[Djuntas]

At this point everything is leaning towards that conclusion, hopefully Yawning and Mihir can confirm this because i really hate playing without bloodletting.

Just my words. Try play without it for a night, and go back... Such nice helper! Not to mention on trash/bosses where you multi-dot.

[Paloro]

Anyone know if the healing buffs on hc ultraxion affect the feral 4p in any way? My guild is planning on 5 healing it, so an extra spot would be open for me to grab if it did benefit from a buff.

[iHelp]

Is it not worth it to ferocious bite during berserk when you hit 5cb? Should I just be shredding non-stop even thought I have 5cb?

[Deleted]

Is it not worth it to ferocious bite during berserk when you hit 5cb? Should I just be shredding non-stop even thought I have 5cb?

Taking a quote from few pages back:

During berserk, the DPE of FB varies. At certain points it is higher, at certain points it is lower than that of shred. Though to be honest, I don't think it will make a noticeable difference either way. I would also recommend FB'ing when appropriate.

What this means i think is that when under berserk and you have low energy FB>shred but when at high enough energy for FB to consume 25 energy for 100% more dmg then Shred>FB. People can correct me if wrong, i just find this to be logical without a mathematical proof so take this with a grain of salt.

[tangedyn]

At this point everything is leaning towards that conclusion, hopefully Yawning and Mihir can confirm this because i really hate playing without bloodletting.

Yep this is confirmed. Most of the reason was a bug in Predatory Strikes being fixed.

[peki]

Am I mistaken or is there no where that states whether or not pooling energy for the extra damage on FB is worth it? Both in and out of berserk.

Also, anyone else love and hate this about our dps?

Mastery stacked (2100mastery / 1243 haste / 1217 crit) 43312 dps
Haste stacked (2700haste / 1184 mastery / 927 crit) 43941 dps
Crit stacked (2152crit / 1346 haste / 1246 mastery) 43535 dps

[Buwwy]

What this means i think is that when under berserk and you have low energy FB>shred but when at high enough energy for FB to consume 25 energy for 100% more dmg then Shred>FB. People can correct me if wrong, i just find this to be logical without a mathematical proof so take this with a grain of salt.

I haven't done the math either, but I do find this the logical thought process. I usually shred away my berserk with maybe one FB when I'm getting low on energy, as to not burn extra energy.

[MasterNewbie]

You're right, Rip should be up before SR

Just wanted to say, unless you get to 5 CPs before getting Rip or SR up, SR should go up first. It has to do with SR doing competitive DPE with Rip and not requiring the full 5 CPs for 100% effectiveness. Mew does this:

3.000: Savage Roar: CPs: 3
3.000: Energy: 80 -> 55 / 100 CPs: 3 -> 0
3.213: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 10613
3.213: Omen of Clarity
3.820: White Swing: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 5230
4.000: Shred: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 25001
4.000: Omen of Clarity Consumed
4.000: Energy: 70 / 100 CPs: 0 -> 1
4.426: White Swing: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 5301
5.000: Ravage: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 58953
5.000: Stampede: Expiration
5.000: Energy: 85 / 100 CPs: 1 -> 3
5.000: Rake Tick: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 11781
5.032: White Swing: Yawningstrasza GLANCE Damage: 4034
5.639: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11080
5.639: Fury Swipes: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 19083
6.000: Shred: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 25732
6.000: Energy: 100 -> 60 / 100 CPs: 3 -> 4
6.245: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11168
6.851: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11257
7.000: Shred: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 53421
7.000: Proc Refresh: Wrath of Unchaining (416) Expiration: 17.00
7.000: Energy: 75 -> 35 / 100 CPs: 4 -> 5
7.458: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11257
8.000: Shred: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 53834
8.000: Energy: 50 -> 10 / 100 CPs: 5
8.000: Rake Tick: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 24269
8.064: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11345
8.670: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11345
8.670: Fury Swipes: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 9485
9.000: Tiger's Fury
9.000: Energy: 25 -> 85 / 100 CPs: 5
9.000: Primal Madness: Energy: 105 / 120
9.000: Stampede
9.000: Berserk
9.000: Proc Trigger: Kiroptyric Sigil
9.000: Rip: Yawningstrasza HIT

[Nathanyel]

Just wanted to say, unless you get to 5 CPs before getting Rip or SR up, SR should go up first.

Wait, what? "If you can't reach your goal in 3 steps, go all the way back and try again"

Always put up 5CP Rip first. If you're crazy about SR, apply it with the first 1-2 CPs generated afterwards. Then aim for a 4-5x, say 'normal' SR, then build CPs again to be ready to refresh Rip in time.

By the way, don't you hate the fact that you can refresh SR with a shorter duration? SnD gives an error when you attempt that.

[Yawning]

Wait, what? "If you can't reach your goal in 3 steps, go all the way back and try again"

Always put up 5CP Rip first. If you're crazy about SR, apply it with the first 1-2 CPs generated afterwards. Then aim for a 4-5x, say 'normal' SR, then build CPs again to be ready to refresh Rip in time.

Prove it (Hint, you probably can't).

With 4T13:
What Mew does (SVN): FF->Mangle->Rake->SR->Ravage!->Shred->TF/Berserk->Ravage!->Rip
Alternative: FF->Mangle->Rake->Ravage!->Shred->TF/Berserk->Rip->Rake->SR (Great, you're wasting 1-2 cps at a minimum, and 2 seconds of Rip uptime for 4 seconds of SR uptime (2 of it with TF up) is a terrible tradeoff....).

Without 4T13:
What Mew does: FF->Mangle->Rake->SR->Shred->TF/Berserk->Shred->Ravage!->Rip
Alternative: FF->Mangle->Rake->Shred->TF/Berserk->Rip->Ravage!->SR (Grats you traded off 3 secs of Rip uptime for 3 secs of SR uptime, 2 of it with TF up.)

The difference in openers is more pronounced for 4T13 than without. OoC complicates things since the SR favored priority list has one additional global worth of time where OoC procing will push back Rip, but on the other hand early OoC procs only push back Rip as opposed to both Rip and SR. For profiles that I care about pushing back Rip #1 is also partially mitigated by Kiril and Wrath of Unchaining as well (More chances to proc/ramp up and higher stack count respectively).

The differences in openers while statistically significant don't really matter for the average player since they don't actually do enough combat over the course of a tier to be able to accurately tell the difference from noise (especially accounting for the fact that most people suck and don't play nearly as well as a simulator can).

Note: I adjusted the script ever so slightly tonight to handle opening better but it has no bearing on this discussion (It was being stupid and clipping a Ravage! somewhat rarely. I also changed how actions inside the TF window end up being ordered but that's DPS neutral.).

PS: Finally getting around to making an account here, even though I probably won't post much. All the unholy abominations that call themselves openers goaded me into doing so, Congratulations.

[Zheryn]

Some new info about Vial of Shadows became available, and Mew was updated accordingly.
- 25sec icd
- 15% proc chance
- procs can be parried, dodged, missed and can crit
- procs scale with attackpower in a 1:1 ratio

Reran all the trinkets with my new ilvl 410 bis profile:

4633 H:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77999/v Hragon Soul first 6 bosses
4595 H:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77994/w Heroic: Spine of Deathwing
4252 N:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77207/v Dragon Soul first 6 bosses
4080 N:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77197/w Spine of Deathwing
3925 RF:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77979/v RFragon Soul first 6 bosses
3610 RF:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77974/w Raid Finder: Spine of Deathwing
3608 H:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77993/s Heroic: Warmaster Blackhorn
3203 http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77113/k Valor
3202 H:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/69150/m Heroic: Ragnaros
3188 N:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77202/s Warmaster Blackhorn
2827 N:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/68994/m Ragnaros
2827 RF:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77973/s Raid Finder: Warmaster Blackhorn
2720 H:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/69112/t Heroic: Majordomo Staghelm
2626 R:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/69001/a Avengers of Hyjal: Revered
2345 D:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/72897/a End Time - Murozond

Glyph setup used is rip/berserk/tiger's fury, except for the on use trinkets (kiroptyric sigil/ancient petrified seed) which use bloodletting instead of tiger's fury.

If this still is correct, could it replace the t12 trinkets in the guide, please Mihir?

I managed to pick up LFR version of Vial of Shadows, so I guess I'm replacing my Starcatcher Compass Normal now.

1k posts ololol

[Buwwy]

Just wanted to say, unless you get to 5 CPs before getting Rip or SR up, SR should go up first. It has to do with SR doing competitive DPE with Rip and not requiring the full 5 CPs for 100% effectiveness. Mew does this:

3.000: Savage Roar: CPs: 3
3.000: Energy: 80 -> 55 / 100 CPs: 3 -> 0
3.213: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 10613
3.213: Omen of Clarity
3.820: White Swing: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 5230
4.000: Shred: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 25001
4.000: Omen of Clarity Consumed
4.000: Energy: 70 / 100 CPs: 0 -> 1
4.426: White Swing: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 5301
5.000: Ravage: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 58953
5.000: Stampede: Expiration
5.000: Energy: 85 / 100 CPs: 1 -> 3
5.000: Rake Tick: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 11781
5.032: White Swing: Yawningstrasza GLANCE Damage: 4034
5.639: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11080
5.639: Fury Swipes: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 19083
6.000: Shred: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 25732
6.000: Energy: 100 -> 60 / 100 CPs: 3 -> 4
6.245: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11168
6.851: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11257
7.000: Shred: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 53421
7.000: Proc Refresh: Wrath of Unchaining (416) Expiration: 17.00
7.000: Energy: 75 -> 35 / 100 CPs: 4 -> 5
7.458: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11257
8.000: Shred: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 53834
8.000: Energy: 50 -> 10 / 100 CPs: 5
8.000: Rake Tick: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 24269
8.064: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11345
8.670: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11345
8.670: Fury Swipes: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 9485
9.000: Tiger's Fury
9.000: Energy: 25 -> 85 / 100 CPs: 5
9.000: Primal Madness: Energy: 105 / 120
9.000: Stampede
9.000: Berserk
9.000: Proc Trigger: Kiroptyric Sigil
9.000: Rip: Yawningstrasza HIT

If this is the case that's my bad. I could have sworn I read way back in this thread (around 4.1?) that the DPE of Rip was higher than that of SR and therefore it was better to get Rip up and ticking first. However my reason in posting the opening rotation for t13 was for two reasons: 1. To show that you want to make sure to use your Charge - Ravage! before popping TF because you don't want to overwrite the t13 buff. And 2. To show those that keeping asking when you should be using on-use trinkets/Synapse springs. Another note is that I forgot to include that you should also use Berserking (troll racial) the same time as you pop Berserk as the CDs line up perfectly.

Also I was looking for some confirmation on what I read a couple posts back, has BL glyph really overtaken the TF glyph?

[Elunedra]

Just my words. Try play without it for a night, and go back... Such nice helper! Not to mention on trash/bosses where you multi-dot.

i do like the fact the debuff icon properly scles whit the duration of the rip rather then dropping off at 90% duration (on icon)

however i did also notice quite some times while i had to target swap in DW that when i was back on my target rip just dropped off before i could refrsh so keeping it up whould have yeilded more dps.

but i dont understand how GoBL can be better thebn GoTF as you get more Ravage! out of GoTF and GoBL loose a lot of its value below 60% health

[Deleted]

but i dont understand how GoBL can be better thebn GoTF as you get more Ravage! out of GoTF and GoBL loose a lot of its value below 60% health

Quote from Yawning on FluidDruid:

Figure I'll chime in on this. The reason for the change is two fold.
a) Kiril's ICD previously was set to 50 sec, now it's 55 sec. With a 15% proc rate, it lines up remarkably well with something that has a 30 sec cooldown now (Basically profiles with Kiril end up hitting the "procs that line up with the TF cooldown" case).
b) I fixed a long standing (like, it's been in the code for over a year) bug with Predatory Strikes and Ravage that decreases the amount of damage Ravages beyond the first one do. This devalues 4T13 (and mid-encounter Ravages) a decent amount though the set bonus is still quite good.

The Kiril change on it's own is sufficient to alter glyph values, but the second change didn't help things.

Just a messenger. ^^

[Buwwy]

Quote from Yawning on FluidDruid:


Just a messenger. ^^

Thanks for the confirmation

[SmokeyIllidan]

Good find on the glyph change, Blood Letting is certainly a quality of life upgrade regardless of the DPS increase. I'll admit I was enjoying the balls out style of biting and hoping to get 5 CP back. You lose Rip up time, but if you're biting for 100k+ it's going to make up for 1 or 2 lost ticks. But Blood Letting is quality for fights that require swapping, and that tends to be most.

[traen]

Good find on the glyph change, Blood Letting is certainly a quality of life upgrade regardless of the DPS increase. I'll admit I was enjoying the balls out style of biting and hoping to get 5 CP back. You lose Rip up time, but if you're biting for 100k+ it's going to make up for 1 or 2 lost ticks. But Blood Letting is quality for fights that require swapping, and that tends to be most.

I hate blizzard. I have 4 stacks of powder in my pack because I have to change glyphs for every single fight. Did they really want us to do that? Its ridiculous.

And I'm really worried. Because it looks like we will have to change spec for every boss in MoP.

Say thanks to people who said that current talent tree is boring and that you don't have any real choice in it.
Who are those people btw? I never said anything like that! I was pretty satisfied with one universal spec.

[Elunedra]

I hate blizzard. I have 4 stacks of powder in my pack because I have to change glyphs for every single fight. Did they really want us to do that? Its ridiculous.

And I'm really worried. Because it looks like we will have to change spec for every boss in MoP.

Say thanks to people who said that current talent tree is boring and that you don't have any real choice in it.
Who are those people btw? I never said anything like that! I was pretty satisfied with one universal spec.

i think its aimed toward social players who can play just fine even if they dont min / max that extra 500 dps by swapping talents every fight

anyway i dont have kiril, so i wnder maybe GoTF is still better for me, gues i got to run mew myzelf for that answer

[tangedyn]

I tried going with GoTF instead of GoBL and it quickly became apparently why GoBL is likely to be better. Even below 60% I often found myself forced to use Ferocious Bite with less than 5CP to keep Rip up, which is suboptimal. With GoBL you can pretty much guarantee that you will have 5 CPs for FB before Rip runs out.

GoBL is definitely not "useless" below 60%

[MaxFax]

On the first page of the guide Mihir says that w/o 4pt12 hit and exp are the lowest weight stats and mastery is the highest. Currently im in 4pt13 and running simcraft im getting this results :
Exp: 1.8253
Hit: 1.8188
Haste : 1.6429
Crit: 1.6164
Mastery: 1.5853
Am i doing something wrong with my calcs?