So how does holy get mana?

[Kacie]

You didn't go oom because you barely used renew, were talking about this one spell that makes us go low on mana, i run oom but i have shadowfiend,hymn, and im a alchy so i got the pots too.

Point is i can spam chakra poh but it doesn't heal for as much as renew can, and the druid in the log is on 22k hps i've never seen anyone go above 12k on hc bql before so thats a huge difference imo.

Will see how my raid goes tonight :P

[Powerlamer]

Just for your information, i checked our WoL of yesterday for verify the mana gains, and thats what i got from HBQ 25:

Mana Gained on Blood Queen
- Druid 1 = 63542
- Druid 2 = 58595
- Shaman = 38796
- Priest Disc = 37580
- Priest Holy = 27209
- Paladin = 26481

DRUID 1
Revitalize 38610 mana
Innervate 8830 mana
Replenishment 8573 mana
Hymn of Hope 3929 mana
Mana Restore 3600 mana
TOTAL = 63542

SHAMAN
Water Shield 28544 mana
Replenishment 6052 mana
Mana Restore 4200 mana
TOTAL = 38796

DRUID 2
Revitalize 36219 mana
Replenishment 8605 mana
Innervate 7714 mana
Hymn of Hope 3433 mana
Restore Mana 2624 mana
TOTAL = 58595

PALADIN
Replenishment 8676 mana
Divine Plea 6150 mana
Arcane Torrent 4920 mana
Mana Restore 4800 mana
Seal of Insight 1053 mana
Hymn of Hope 820 mana
Holy Shock 34 Unknown
Eternal Glory 28 Unknown
TOTAL = 26481

PRIEST DISCI
Rapture 32042 mana
Replenishment 5538 mana
TOTAL = 37580

PRIEST HOLY
Replenishment 9512 mana
Arcane Torrent 4813 mana
Crazy Alchemist's Potion 4288 mana
Rejuvenation Potion 3871 mana
Mana Restore 3000 mana
Hymn of Hope 1725 mana
TOTAL = 27209 mana

That should clear everything
IMHO

[Kelesti]

Your logs don't account for Holy Concentration, because regen itself isn't counted as a "mana gain".

Therefore, your logs are missing more than half of variable data, and are invalid.

[Deleted]

Your logs don't account for Holy Concentration, because regen itself isn't counted as a "mana gain".

Therefore, your logs are missing more than half of variable data, and are invalid.

Because 20% more regen in combat is more then half data.
Right?

Looking at things in a vacuum doesn't change the fact that Holy Priest's mana regen is trash.
One thing you are missing is the cost of the spells, our only reasonable mana costs are Heal and PoM, the last of which has a cooldown.

I suggest you take a look at this.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/n...m/healingDone/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1...m/healingDone/

Pally:
Divine Plea 329959 mana
Replenishment 237632 mana
Seal of Insight 38407 mana
Restore Mana 20295 mana
Hymn of Hope 6002 mana

Replenishment 258883 mana
Divine Plea 232960 mana
Seal of Insight 46843 mana
Restore Mana 39973 mana
Hymn of Hope 35049 mana


Druid:
Revitalize 1093960 mana
Replenishment 245742 mana
Innervate 185810 mana
Restore Mana 39624 mana
Hymn of Hope 22957 mana

Revitalize 1266682 mana
Replenishment 298693 mana
Innervate 183408 mana
Restore Mana 41880 mana
Hymn of Hope 15218 mana


Druid:
Revitalize 827709 mana
Replenishment 355734 mana
Innervate 281475 mana
Restore Mana 38112 mana
Rejuvenation Potion 8015 mana

Shaman:

Water Shield 373329 mana
Replenishment 220222 mana
Hymn of Hope 50593 mana
Rejuvenation Potion 15294 mana
Totemic Recall 5738 mana


Holy Priest:
Replenishment 207038 mana
Mana Leech 129137 mana
Innervate 67462 mana
Archangel 33647 mana
Hymn of Hope 30475 mana

Replenishment 246800 mana
Mana Leech 75035 mana
Archangel 59510 mana
Hymn of Hope 32171 mana
Innervate 5383 mana


Disc Priest:
Rapture 304500 mana
Replenishment 172303 mana
Mana Leech 166950 mana
Archangel 19643 mana

Rapture 350313 mana
Mana Leech 324711 mana
Replenishment 259900 mana
Archangel 181485 mana
Hymn of Hope 10325 mana

[Scrubble]

Althors Abacus is RNG = only good for padding meters, not for effective healing.
Glowing Twilight Scale = BiS on use, controllable splash healing.

Solace > Lunar Dust as the thing from Marrowgar 10.

Enjoy the regen.

[harky]

No, not because 20% more regen in combat is more than half the data, but because base regen is more than half the data. You're leaving out the largest source of regen across the board and then claiming that something is trash. How long was that BQL fight, for instance? If it's 3 minutes you'd be leaving out ~35k mana regenerated by the Holy Priest. The Priest in that example wasn't even trying to get mana back too hard. Where's the Shadowfiend? And so on.

Getting 1/3rd the mana of a Druid sounds outrageous until you realize that it's not including normal regen, or including all possible cooldowns. Do people really understand this little about the game after this many years? That's just scary.

I mean really, you think the Priest only got 27k mana back? So what that gives them around 65k mana to play with? Hope it was an <2 minute kill. Only you know, even then they'd have gotten another 23k back from Spirit... Oups.

Edit: Oh and Althor's isn't bad because it's 'RNG', it's bad because it got nerfed and is now only 28 more Int than Solace, instead of being 42 SP higher. On most fights Solace also trumps GTS, so calling it BiS is silly. It's only BiS on a couple fights. The nerfs hit high level trinkets bad. I mean Illustration of the Dragon Soul is now BiS for Disc again? Hilarious. BiS is Heroic Solace + PLD for general use. The extra Int on PLD makes it provide equivalent regen to normal Solace and also gives more SP.

[Deleted]

Althors Abacus is RNG = only good for padding meters, not for effective healing.
Glowing Twilight Scale = BiS on use, controllable splash healing.

Solace > Lunar Dust as the thing from Marrowgar 10.

Enjoy the regen.

WotLK has ended time ago.

No, not because 20% more regen in combat is more than half the data, but because base regen is more than half the data. You're leaving out the largest source of regen across the board and then claiming that something is trash. How long was that BQL fight, for instance? If it's 3 minutes you'd be leaving out ~35k mana regenerated by the Holy Priest. The Priest in that example wasn't even trying to get mana back too hard. Where's the Shadowfiend? And so on.

Getting 1/3rd the mana of a Druid sounds outrageous until you realize that it's not including normal regen, or including all possible cooldowns. Do people really understand this little about the game after this many years? That's just scary.

I mean really, you think the Priest only got 27k mana back? So what that gives them around 65k mana to play with? Hope it was an <2 minute kill. Only you know, even then they'd have gotten another 23k back from Spirit... Oups.

I was talking about logs from beta. Also it's not that other healers aren't regening mana from spirit at all, it's just a 20% increase.

[Kelesti]

They may not account for the total difference from the "Gains" portion, but more than half of our "blueberry juice" (<3 Danner) comes from the Spirit-Regen formula.

If Recount or World of Logs accounted for such Regen, we could see where people were gearing for more or less, and also see the actual mana gap is smaller than what logs are currently indicating.

But they can't, currently, so treating "mana gained" as the only source of blue bar when it's still less than half is a complete and total disregard for objective observation.

Hence, they're still invalid.

[Kalmah]

[/COLOR]http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1425&e=1675

4 healing H BQL yesterday. I didn't go OOM, and did 13k HPS even though I really didn't need too, was just curious how high I can get. You know what was funny there about not going OOM? I pretty much just spammed PoH, which is eve worse than a renew cycle for mana. Pretty hilar about all the complainers. Guys, raiding hasn't gotten hard for holy - stop comparing us to disc, druids, shamans... etc. We are not any of those. We are the Holy priest, the most effective and most difficult to play helaer int he game, but if mastered, the most powerful healer in the game. Once you guys realize this class is no longer designed for spamming the happier you will be.

It has already been said, but you got 2 innervates. Please explain how that makes sense if you're not going oom. You're also doing about 10k less hps than the druid. That's not exactly insignificant. How does that make priests the best healer ?

[Deleted]

They may not account for the total difference from the "Gains" portion, but more than half of our "blueberry juice" (<3 Danner) comes from the Spirit-Regen formula.

If Recount or World of Logs accounted for such Regen, we could see where people were gearing for more or less, and also see the actual mana gap is smaller than what logs are currently indicating.

But they can't, currently, so treating "mana gained" as the only source of blue bar when it's still less than half is a complete and total disregard for objective observation.

Hence, they're still invalid.

That more then a half isn't enough at all to compete with other healers. Remember it's just a 20% increase while in combat, other healers have mana from spirit AND from procs. We have mana from spirit + 20% and nothing more. Or are you implying that 20% from spirit is comparable to Revitalize or Rapture?

[harky]

That more then a half isn't enough at all to compete with other healers. Remember it's just a 20% increase while in combat, other healers have mana from spirit AND from procs. We have mana from spirit + 20% and nothing more. Or are you implying that 20% from spirit is comparable to Revitalize or Rapture?

If you're talking about Beta, then yes. It is comparable. At a 3 minute fight at 85 you're talking about an additional 26k mana from Spirit just by taking Holy Conc. Ignoring Spirit regen is stupid.

[Deleted]

26k mana is comparable to 1 million from Revitalize? LOL
Ignoring that other healers get mana from spirit too is stupid.

[harky]

Let's use those crappy logs you posted, mmk?

Revitalize: 1,093,960 over 3,766.9 seconds = ~1,452 MP5
Rapture: 304,500 over 2221.1 seconds = ~685 MP5

Holy Conc, assuming ~90k mana and ~3k Spirit = ~708 MP5

Compare to Revitalize? Perhaps not. Compare to any other regen mechanic? Yep. Don't compare to abilities which are clearly too good. We have no idea how long Revitalize will last in its current state given Blizzard's insistence that healers should not be able to spam heal.

[Deleted]

Let's use those crappy logs you posted, mmk?

Revitalize: 1,093,960 over 3,766.9 seconds = ~1,452 MP5
Rapture: 304,500 over 2221.1 seconds = ~685 MP5

Holy Conc, assuming ~90k mana and ~3k Spirit = ~708 MP5

Compare to Revitalize? Perhaps not. Compare to any other regen mechanic? Yep. Don't compare to abilities which are clearly too good. We have no idea how long Revitalize will last in its current stat given Blizzard's insistence that healers should not be able to spam heal.

90k mana and 3k spirit? With tier 12 maybe. My premade with 350 ilvl fully reforged to spirit has 2200 spirit and 70k mana.

Also add to Revitalize and Rapture mana from spirit too.

[harky]

It's too bad about those buffs and all, isn't it.

Oh and the mana regeneration calculation is only from Holy Conc. Something which neither Druids, or Disc Priest have access to. There's no need to include that unless you'd also want to include the entire MP5 from Spirit, which is around 2,480. Even with your lowball figures, which would only apply fully unbuffed, Holy Conc is worth just under 500 mp5.

To further illustrate.... compare the tick sizes from Shadowfiends. It returns 3% per hit. Rab was getting 2834.6 average. That means Rab had approximately 94,486 mana.

[rabbimojo]

Just a few rambling thoughts to chew on:
(1) Is that druid healing style sustainable at 85? More than half the gains by those two druids come from revitalize.
If we consider base vs. total mana, with some very rough napkinmath:
Derwent's armory puts him at ~44k mana and ~31% haste. Going to ignore raid buffs for now.

Druid base mana at 80 is 3496. So, rejuv's untalented cost should be ~700. Expected mana profit per cast of rejuv, with a 24% chance to proc 3% total (1320) per tick. Rejuv has 4 ticks base, 31% haste puts this at 5 ticks with some shortening. On average then he'll get 1584 mana back per rejuv. Minus the 700 base cost, that's still profiting 884 mana per cast.

Fast forward to 85. Druid base mana is 18635 (according to http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...%28level-85%29 ). Rejuv's cost is now 3727. Now have access to 2 moonglow and 2 furor, and a third point into either, if we wanted to max mana sustainability. It's hard to estimate how much mana we'll have at 85. Comparing Derwent's 277 legs (167 int) to the 301 int on leather legs in the new loot on the front page, I think it's safe to estimate (very) roughly a doubling of int. This would put Derwent at 5448 int in the first tier. Last I checked we still get 15 mana per int, so that's 81720 mana + 18635 base = ~100k mana. 106k counting HotW.

With 3/3mg 2/3furor, rejuv's cost is ~3392 and total mana bumps up to ~116k. I think I'd be a bit surprised if resto druids are pushing 25% haste in T11, so I'd estimate only 4 rejuv ticks. So, revitalize procs should be 3480, and we'll expect ~3341 mana per cast. This is at a loss, now, though only barely. That still has an enormous impact on relative mana regen.

(2) How much does holy really gain from Holy Conc? If we just chew on that same parse, it's 3 hours. Over 3 hours of combat (I know it wasn't), with 765 spirit, that would be a gain of 364176 mana over just having 50% regen. Just eyeballing, I think there's about 130 minutes of active healing in the parse, which would be 269085 mana. I'm not so sure it's something you can really discount so easily.

Again, I realize this is all extremely rough napkinmath. I'm mostly just trying to point out some things that could change our intuitions about what is potent and what is not.

[cruxxy]

All the beta logs show that rejuv spam is viable and effective.

[rabbimojo]

All the beta logs show that rejuv spam is viable and effective.

Noted. Though, my napkins suggest that anyways.

Given that Blizz doesn't seem fond of rejuv spam, I wouldn't be surprised to see revitalize change. Perhaps lifebloom will keep the 24% proc, and rejuv's chance will be lowered to make it less sustainable. Though, considering the numbers I just rambled off, the proc would have to be pretty low to make mana a concern for a rejuv spammer.

[Deleted]

To further illustrate.... compare the tick sizes from Shadowfiends. It returns 3% per hit. Rab was getting 2834.6 average. That means Rab had approximately 94,486 mana.

Rab was a Disc/Holy Priest that probably switched to Disc when he used shadowfiend. (+15% intellect)

[harky]

Wow, really? Let's compare the other two then, shall we? Kinaesthesia was at 2587.4 (86.2k mana) and Stormcolond at 3063.3 (101.2k mana). Ooo, aaah. That means Rab probably had ~88k mana as Holy assuming he is geared as well as Stormcolond.

So it begs the question... how was Kinaesthesia gemmed and what trinkets are in use. That's less than 400 Int away from 90k mana, which may sound like a big number, but it isn't. You're essentially claiming that you can't have 90k mana until some later tier of gear, but here we see a Priest at over 86k. Even using the new Darkmoon healing trinket would pop you up to 90k from that.

Honestly, you want to know the difference in regen between 86k and 90k though? 58 MP5. It's also only a difference of 250 Int. Just over 6 gems, 100 less than the Darkmoon trinket, and so on. Holy will be quite capable of breaking 90k mana in T11.