Combat in 4.0.1 & Cataclysm

[Deleted]

I already saw a topic on this, but I thought the initial post was rather poor so I thought to make one of my own.

It's no secret that currently Combat is the inferior spec in both pve & pvp.

I've been playing a rogue for 3 years and in those 3 years I've always played combat and I've always liked the changes they've implemented, there really wheren't all that many changes but those that they made where quite good.

Up till now.

So why are Combat rogues doing so much less damage eventhough in theory it seems they should be doing the same amount or even more?

Well I think it's very easy to explain, Armor Penetration is gone and it won't come back: that's fine. Since 3.2 we've also been playing with a Rupture'less rotation. Which made Combat seem "dull" at times, but that's down to personal choice.

In Icecrown, and especially in heroic 25 gear, once you start getting close to your armor pen cap (or even have it as I did) you start hitting really really hard with both eviscerate and sinister strikes.

Now, Blizzard clearly wanted to balance out the loss of Armor Penetation on our Eviscerates by implementing Revealing Strike, it worked, my Eviscerates hit as hard or at times even harder as they did with 100 % armor penetation. (25-27k raid buffed)

However, they forget one important thing, and that is our Sinister Strike. Instead of hitting for 11-15k now Sinister Strike hits for about 8. That's a damage drop of atleast 30 %.

In fact the damage amplifier from "blade twisting" was even removed and SS get's a lot less damage amplification than it used to prior to 4.0.1

I'm not sure if this is on purpose or if it was just overlooked, however I don't see why a Sinister Strike should be THAT blatantly inferior to a Mutilate? It's my understanding that a "combat" Rogue should be dealing harder hits since we're using slower weapons.

I think a lot of people think of Rogues as "sneaky" and "Assasin" like characters, but I don't believe Combat ever fitted this profile, and I don't beleive it ever should. I think it should be something on it's own. A lot of trolls will probably go "Roll a Warrior then!" but I don't believe that a Combat Rogue is a Warrior, however I don't believe we're pure "stealthy, sneaky" rogues either.


Assassination always had it's strengths, the role is in the name itself: deal a large burst of damage and kill someone off in a few seconds: that's what an assassin does, then he get's out of the hotspot.

Sub has always had it's own charm, shadowstep was already a huge thing back in TBC and it was often the way to go in PVP, Sub was Shadowstep... and even now I think it still is.


Combat always was a huge damage dealer, the name it self stands for damage.. but now I feel they totally turned the tables on Combat, turned their backs to it and are saying "go play assassination or sub or just reroll a warrior". Combat has always been a huge damage spec, sustained damage and the bette ryou master your rotation the better it used to get. I believe this talent tree needs to be revewed.

Sinister strike, the most frequently used spell, is just doing to little damage if you compare it to Assassination, it's also doing way to low damage compared to other prime dps classes at this point.


I don't think Combat should be totally changed, I like the new mechanics, but I beleive that Sinister strike is lacking about 30 % damage at this time, I'm not saying Combat should be buffed with 30 % more damage, just saying that Sinister Strike needs to be reviewed.

[Powerogue]

sucks, but I'll probably end up respeccing mut. blizzard just got done removing weapon skills and talents relating to them so as combat I can use a wide variety of weapons (YAY!!!) only to nerf combat so I'm kicked into assassination, which I've always avoided because you can't need on that epic 500 dps axe, you need to wait 3 years for one dagger in one instance to drop...

[Deleted]

I don't think MG was intended as a direct damage mastery but more like helping triggering DP>IP and energy regen but anyway it's contribution to dps is pretty low atm. If we were to consider an extra oh attack applying DP>IP + 15 energy + oh dmg that could be somewhere near a mh attack in value.

[acenthehole]

I always liked combat since day one because i learned the rotations and how to control my cooldowns easier and i like how combat is looking in cataclysm but the low damage isn't gonna get me into a raid.

[Lugo Moll]

Why so dramatic? What spec was best has been fluctuating a lot throughout WotLK. Let's look at some history:

3.0 Mutilate was best by far. (non-normalized poisons) Sub had some shine time with a HaT bug. Combat pretty much sucked.
3.1 Pretty even between combat and sub. Combat won on short fights and multitarget while mut won on tank'n'spank.
3.2 Combat got a lot better than mut due to ArP scaling.
3.3 Even between the specs again. Similar situation to 3.1. Combat still better on high gear levels.
4.0 Back to 3.0 style. Mut a lot better than combat. Sub possibly decent.

So you see it's shifting a lot between patches. It's not like combat will never be good again. There's also a very large chance we will get more class changes the next couple of months. We also don't know how the class will feel on lvl 85 in terms of energy regen, etc.

[Sesshou]

Why so dramatic? What spec was best has been fluctuating a lot throughout WotLK. Let's look at some history:

3.0 Mutilate was best by far. (non-normalized poisons) Sub had some shine time with a HaT bug. Combat pretty much sucked.
3.1 Pretty even between combat and sub. Combat won on short fights and multitarget while mut won on tank'n'spank.
3.2 Combat got a lot better than mut due to ArP scaling.
3.3 Even between the specs again. Similar situation to 3.1. Combat still better on high gear levels.
4.0 Back to 3.0 style. Mut a lot better than combat. Sub possibly decent.

So you see it's shifting a lot between patches. It's not like combat will never be good again. There's also a very large chance we will get more class changes the next couple of months. We also don't know how the class will feel on lvl 85 in terms of energy regen, etc.

Ok, but 3.0 doesn't really count because aside from the HAT bug, rogue damage as a whole was poor and blizzard should have fixed it at launch. There were really no "good" specs, just some sucked more than others.

Other than that, you have mut and combat basically matching. Even in 3.2 where you say combat got "a lot" better, that isn't entirely true. Single target mut with weapon swapping was close theoretically; the reason combat became so dominant is because pretty much every fight in ToC favored combats cooldowns. Again, in 3.3 even at high gear, though combat pulls ahead, mut is close, however due to fights favoring the added benefits of combat (i.e. target swapping and cooldowns), combat massively dominated.

So actually, combat and mut are reasonably close the whole time. The mechanics combat used for dps just happen to fit better with the encounters. And if they could manage a similar situation (even reversed assassination's favor) I think most rogues would be fine with it (assuming rogue dps in general is fine).

Also there are level 85 raids being tested, level 85 energy regen has been tested.

[Deleted]

So actually, combat and mut are reSeriously if you look at warrior or DK, the disparity asonably close the whole time. The mechanics combat used for dps just happen to fit better with the encounters. And if they could manage a similar situation (even reversed assassination's favor) I think most rogues would be fine with it (assuming rogue dps in general is fine).

Except it's not that it "happened" that raid encounters fit combat playstyle better. Combat just had more versatility. They can't make a lot of single target patchwerk fights suited for assassination or raids get very boring. Single target patchwerk fights aren't really interesting and they aren't usually that hard. The theoretical extra dps you get for sacrificing all versatility and utility often isn't making or breaking the kill on those fights.

Almost every other dps spec is better equipped for various fights than assassination: cleaves, low (or no at all) ramp up time, good aoe and very close if not superior single target damage. Seriously if you compare rogues in general and assassination in particular to classes like DKs or warriors or even combat - we pay huge tax for dps advantage which often doesn't even exist. You can be top on two trivial fights - they'll destroy you on all other fights.

[Sesshou]

Except it's not that it "happened" that raid encounters fit combat playstyle better. Combat just had more versatility. They can't make a lot of single target patchwerk fights suited for assassination or raids get very boring. Single target patchwerk fights aren't really interesting and they aren't usually that hard. The theoretical extra dps you get for sacrificing all versatility and utility often isn't making or breaking the kill on those fights.

Almost every other dps spec is better equipped for various fights than assassination: cleaves, low (or no at all) ramp up time, good aoe and very close if not superior single target damage. Seriously if you compare rogues in general and assassination in particular to classes like DKs or warriors or even combat - we pay huge tax for dps advantage which often doesn't even exist. You can be top on two trivial fights - they'll destroy you on all other fights.

Not sure what your point is. I didn't say mut was as good of a raid spec. All I said was it was close in theoretical dps and combat ended up being the popular choice because the mechanics favored it, and all of this you basically agreed with. The problem now though is that whether its theoretical or actual dps, combat is no where close, therefore this is actually a lot different from the rest of the expansion, unlike the other poster claimed.

Also most of combat's fight mechanic advantage (if not all) is gone. Combat now not only takes longer to stack poisons, but lost any target swap advantage with the addition of BG. Mut also how has a solid dps cooldown for burn phases. So that tax for dps advantage against combat is basically gone now anyway. Also the redirect thing (though its a 1 min cooldown, kinda dumb since the lock equiv isn't) will help a lot with being able to swap and envenom to get the stacks up for mut, while the biggest thing against combat swapping right now seems to be BG and redirect does nothing for that.

[Deleted]

Not sure what your point is. I didn't say mut was as good of a raid spec.

I was referring to you mentioning theoretical situation of raids better suited for assassination than for combat. It's just very unlikely to ever happen. Not that it was main point of your reply . I also pointed that even now assassination is lacking more than only dps (and it always has). I agree with you on most of what you wrote.

[Trollslaughter]

sounds like bunch of angry kids..

[sparks]

no not kids.
Leather wearing people who need more damage and abilities.
Now the plate wearer has the damage and abilities.
Leather person has less damage and more ramp up time. SURE go stand behind the boss.
I can't see the boss because of the pallys dk's and shamans stacked there.
Go hide in the corner.
leveling, we will do less damage and spend more time hiding while the armor people will just walk thru.
before now combat took damage but we had damage and skills that got us thru when leveling.
It just looks like a long road now.
yep they buffed hunters maybe we can get some too.
I also play a shaman so I know what BEING F'd and forgotten means when you are dealing with buzzard.

[Powerogue]

looks like they're actually recognizing combat's deficiency and adjusting it by changing one of the passives (i'm betting on the offhand/thrown weapon damage one) and massively, massively buffing our mastery. not sure how much that'll help though.