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  1. #41
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    Where I do not condone the hostility towards you of the first few posters, I do seriously wonder what point you are trying to make in this thread?

    You believe that "fact is so many people are brainwashed to whatever blizzard tells them(especially on mmo champion)"

    - First off I would not state something as a fact that has any possibilities of not being so. And as this is not the 1950's and commercial brainwashing is illegal, I find it hard to believe this "fact".

    Secondly, are you yourself not as bad as the "brainwashed" masses by believing that Blizzard are compulsive liars, that treats its customer base with no respect, and enjoy nothing more then making our WoW life a nightmare?

    I really struggle to see your point, If it is your opinion that the "balance at 85" thing is a ruse and then that is fine, but if that is the case you should not go on a rant at the optimistic player who does indeed believe Blizzard and hopes that the 85 story is true.

    Either way I would not take so much to heart when others retaliate to a opinionated thread.


    On a side note I am a half full kind of guy and have faith that things will be sorted come 85

  2. #42
    sure, it's a copout. Others are saying that it's difficult for blizzard to send out a perfect product...or to even bring one to live. But that's a different issue alltogether. Saying that "it's scaled to level 85" implies that these numbers are intentional. Saying that blizzard can't be expected to put out a perfect product means the numbers were unintentional.

    If blizzard knew how imbalanced some specs would turn out after 4.0.1, they'd have to be crazy to say to themselves "level 80 PvP is fine." And because they have complete control over the scaling process at every level (since they changed from the rank to a scaled system), they should be held accountable.

    Blizzard just rushed out the patch...or were too lazy to address the scaling issues. But I don't think they were stupid enough to intend for level 80 play to be like this.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Infringement View Post
    Anyone else get the feelign that the OP isnt so much pissed off at people telling him that its balanced at 85 as much as hes pissed off with blizzard for being... well, i dont know. but from everything ive read that hes posted it jsut seems to me that hes just angry at blizzard.

    Or just angry, which means hes probably short and/or scottish.
    if you mean me legitmitaely QQ'ing about tree's not being "so many more choices" like they said, and every mmo champion blizz apologist pretending there are despite being unable to argue it then sure. check mage forums and the whole first page with the apologists pretending the tree's are something they aren't, where i went ability for ability to prove we're mostly pigeon-holed. a LOT of people here live in a whatever blizzard tells them brainwashed reality, but not real reality :P and thats my overall issue with a lot of the people here, just like in this thread, and how people always try to state how everything is balanced for 85...as if it all comes together then when in reality it doesn't.

    i haven't really QQ'd about anything else other than maybe frost's dumbing down playstyle now in some areas. in fact i praised them for fire's new playstyle...

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-19 at 02:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Porkins View Post
    Where I do not condone the hostility towards you of the first few posters, I do seriously wonder what point you are trying to make in this thread?

    You believe that "fact is so many people are brainwashed to whatever blizzard tells them(especially on mmo champion)"

    - First off I would not state something as a fact that has any possibilities of not being so. And as this is not the 1950's and commercial brainwashing is illegal, I find it hard to believe this "fact".

    Secondly, are you yourself not as bad as the "brainwashed" masses by believing that Blizzard are compulsive liars, that treats its customer base with no respect, and enjoy nothing more then making our WoW life a nightmare?

    I really struggle to see your point, If it is your opinion that the "balance at 85" thing is a ruse and then that is fine, but if that is the case you should not go on a rant at the optimistic player who does indeed believe Blizzard and hopes that the 85 story is true.

    Either way I would not take so much to heart when others retaliate to a opinionated thread.


    On a side note I am a half full kind of guy and have faith that things will be sorted come 85
    actually i'm stating something that MOST people here haven't realized yet, or against what they currently believe(that everything comes together so perfectly at 85). there is a reality and wishful thinkiing of what they're told. i choose reality. but people get butthurt over that...

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Spurmwhale View Post
    if you mean me legitmitaely QQ'ing about tree's not being "so many more choices" like they said, and every mmo champion blizz apologist pretending there are despite being unable to argue it then sure. check mage forums and the whole first page with the apologists pretending the tree's are something they aren't, where i went ability for ability to prove we're mostly pigeon-holed. a LOT of people here live in a whatever blizzard tells them brainwashed reality, but not real reality :P and thats my overall issue with a lot of the people here, just like in this thread, and how people always try to state how everything is balanced for 85...as if it all comes together then when in reality it doesn't.

    i haven't really QQ'd about anything else other than maybe frost's dumbing down playstyle now in some areas. in fact i praised them for fire's new playstyle...

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-19 at 02:56 PM ----------



    actually i'm stating something that MOST people here haven't realized yet, or against what they currently believe(that everything comes together so perfectly at 85). there is a reality and wishful thinkiing of what they're told. i choose reality. but people get butthurt over that...
    I think the real issue is that you're going too strong against both them and Blizzard. people tend to enjoy arguing with these kinds of posts no matter how right or wrong they actually are ;0

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by nosoup4crr View Post
    sure, it's a copout. Others are saying that it's difficult for blizzard to send out a perfect product...or to even bring one to live. But that's a different issue alltogether. Saying that "it's scaled to level 85" implies that these numbers are intentional. Saying that blizzard can't be expected to put out a perfect product means the numbers were unintentional.

    If blizzard knew how imbalanced some specs would turn out after 4.0.1, they'd have to be crazy to say to themselves "level 80 PvP is fine." And because they have complete control over the scaling process at every level (since they changed from the rank to a scaled system), they should be held accountable.

    Blizzard just rushed out the patch...or were too lazy to address the scaling issues. But I don't think they were stupid enough to intend for level 80 play to be like this.
    THey already knew that shit was gonnabe insane in PvP. /why do you think the Arena Season ended just before the patch went up?.

    From what i can tell, ATM Blizzs thoughts on PvP are this: The Arena season has ended, Cata will be out Soon, PvP doesnt matter now.

    Whining about things being OP really doesnt work until the new arena season starts unless one class is 1-Shotting everyone (RE: MAges and they got nerfed).

    Quit the QQ, Wait it out and Start your QQing in a Reasonable and Intelligable manner after the next arena season Starts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spurmwhale View Post
    if you mean me legitmitaely QQ'ing about tree's not being "so many more choices" like they said, and every mmo champion blizz apologist pretending there are despite being unable to argue it then sure. check mage forums and the whole first page with the apologists pretending the tree's are something they aren't, where i went ability for ability to prove we're mostly pigeon-holed. a LOT of people here live in a whatever blizzard tells them brainwashed reality, but not real reality :P and thats my overall issue with a lot of the people here, just like in this thread, and how people always try to state how everything is balanced for 85...as if it all comes together then when in reality it doesn't.

    i haven't really QQ'd about anything else other than maybe frost's dumbing down playstyle now in some areas. in fact i praised them for fire's new playstyle...
    I still dotn see why you need to be so Angry about everything. I mean, yeah okay, so things havent turned out the way you expected. so what? I dotn have Ghoul voices back but im not pissed off at blizzard. yeah, i get random DCs in dungeons and im only mildly annoyed cause im the tank and people rarely kick me for it.

    You liek to tell everyoen theyve been brainwashed by Blizzard, hell soem people probably have but the majority can see the Good through the bad. YOU however, have been brainwashed. Youve been Brainwashed by Sources (dotn ask me what, i have no idea what sites you go to/what you do in your spare time) to think that Blizzard are Evil, Moneygrabbing , Soulless Corporate Dictators. If thats true, then why do they bother giving us patches? Why do they bother attemptign too Improove their game? why do they Bother with Blizzcon every year?.

    You need to try thinking from the middle ground my friend, the grass is just about Green here.
    Last edited by Infringement; 2010-10-19 at 03:11 PM. Reason: Reply

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spurmwhale View Post
    i'm just pointing out a truth here, and a over-stated lie/copout by so many who frequent these forums.

    i'm not exactly blaming Blizzard too much since they couldve either kept all of this stuff on Test and worked it letting us play in the same old stale WoW, or let us play with the new stuff on live, where i guess i prefer the latter(altho i really miss the balance we JUST had tbh). i just expect people to be real to the situation and not makeup whatever BS they can, and repeat it like its true.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-19 at 02:24 PM ----------



    guess you're the noob that just started playing WoW at 4.01 so i think you should stfu noob. if you have a memory at all of Lich King people said the same shit here, and it turned out completely wrong and imbalanced at 80. keep straw manning it tho like the retard you are, i for one am wiser than your pea brain group think brainwashed mentality.

    you have to be EXTREMELY NAIVE or retarded to think all of this right now would be balanced at 85. which one are you? i'm guessing retarded.
    Oh god, he called me a noob. Run away from me before I infect you with noobness...

    Haha you make me laugh. I have been playing for about 5 years now, and I've been through every expansion patch. I know what it was like, seemingly better than you. What I said in my previous post still stands. Stats will not get as crazy in Cata as the did in Wrath. If you think stats scale linearly, you're the retard. Actually, you're worse than a retard. I know some really cool retards and they would never like to be grouped with someone as stubborn and dim witted as you.

    I assume you read my last line wrong. "Bitch about 85 when you hit 85" clearly implies shit will need to be done AT 85. They will need to balance it, shit will be overpowered/underpowered, but it won't be as bad as it is right now. The fact of the matter is, you can only get so much data to balance from beta tests, the best balancing information always comes from live. Unfortunately "Live" is a week or so past December 7th.

    Obviously, I'm not retarded. If I am, that doesn't say much about you. Obviously, I am not brainwashed. I do not think Blizzard is all powerful and all knowing. I disagree with a bunch of shit that Blizzard does. But I do think that they know what they're doing and I do think that they can handle this a hell of a lot better than you could ever hope to handle it. So let's just sit back and let Blizzard do their job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spurmwhale View Post
    lol ii'm the one being hostile? look at the replies. i have a reason to be hostile especially considering this thread is true but a lot of you want to attack me for posting it.

    some of you just can't handle the truth i guess. i don't know why a thread like this would get people butthurt unless they're the ones who are spinning that stupid brainwashed statement about everything SUPPOSEDLY being balanced at 85 :P

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-19 at 02:30 PM ----------



    if you're the one saying everything is balanced at 85, the burden of proving anything should be on you. but you can't, and i GUARANTEE you're wrong. just so many naive people here keep putting blind faith in waht they're told without really factoring in past history, or blizzard not being nearly as perfect as so many of the people here constantly assume/excuse. mmo champion is a haven for blizzard apologists, and anti QQ buttered up thread encouragement.
    No one is saying anything is already balanced for 85. If it was they wouldn't have the Beta realm still up. What Blizzard is saying is that it's a waste to tune everything about Cataclysm for Wrath. Two months of fine tuned balance is a waste of their time and effort. I would much rather them put all that time and effort into polishing Cataclysm so that when it does roll out, it isn't too bad. You said in your original post that the game is in constant progress, well guess what. Progress infers moving forward. Wrath as of the 4.0.1 patch IS IN THE PAST. The present and future, and therefore the progress, is in Catalysm. You come in here spewing bullshit when your own post is full of contradictions.

    Really it all comes down to you being pissed that you were shafted in the updates. Admit it, grow up, and just wait for Cataclysm.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Spurmwhale View Post
    same thing people said in early lich king who QQ'd about pallys, dk's, etc. and funny enough Blizzard still had to do a TON of nerfing to those classes thoughout lich king even at 80 to bring them down.

    fact is so many people are brainwashed to whatever blizzard tells them(especially on mmo champion) they don't realize how much of a work in progress everything is all of the time.

    its just a lame copout to pretend everything is going to come together at 85 as things currently are. people need to stop saying that. guarantee there would be MAJOR issues at 85 if we were playing in it assuming equal scaling...
    You're going to get a lot of replies from the brainwashed retarded teen age dipshit masses that populate this game but have no sophisticated knowledge of this or any other game. Those kind of people will never understand anything other than "AMG I fucking love this game! Blizzard is so cool! This little pet is so adorable! This enchant on my weapon looks so badass! Look at the pretty colors! OMG that mount is so cool, ima buy it from the Blizzard Store and I don't give a damn that it's just an untextured Invincible's Reigns covered in glitter!"

    The thing is, most of the problems that exist with all of the classes at level 80 in fact DO exist at level 85. So when the statement is made "Game is balanced for lvl 85" that statement is NOT at all in any way shape or form meant to indicate that the game is balanced in Cataclysm, what they are actually saying is "We don't care if level 80 is balanced right now, we're focused on making Cataclysm, and we are trying to balance the game around level 85 end game content."

    The truth is, this game will never be balanced and Blizzard needs to just kill it and make a new MMO. Or at least be honest about the state of their game.
    Last edited by Bucky Mclachlan; 2010-10-19 at 03:04 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobzor View Post
    I think the real issue is that you're going too strong against both them and Blizzard. people tend to enjoy arguing with these kinds of posts no matter how right or wrong they actually are ;0
    you're probably right. but you know i'm very opinionated and i just can't help it

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Spurmwhale View Post
    if you mean me legitmitaely QQ'ing about tree's not being "so many more choices" like they said, and every mmo champion blizz apologist pretending there are despite being unable to argue it then sure. check mage forums and the whole first page with the apologists pretending the tree's are something they aren't, where i went ability for ability to prove we're mostly pigeon-holed. a LOT of people here live in a whatever blizzard tells them brainwashed reality, but not real reality :P and thats my overall issue with a lot of the people here, just like in this thread, and how people always try to state how everything is balanced for 85...as if it all comes together then when in reality it doesn't.

    i haven't really QQ'd about anything else other than maybe frost's dumbing down playstyle now in some areas. in fact i praised them for fire's new playstyle...

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-19 at 02:56 PM ----------



    actually i'm stating something that MOST people here haven't realized yet, or against what they currently believe(that everything comes together so perfectly at 85). there is a reality and wishful thinkiing of what they're told. i choose reality. but people get butthurt over that...
    I think most people who have gone through these expansions realise that it won't be perfect at the start of Cataclysm. And does it really matter if those who haven't or still worship Blizzard's way of doing things think Cataclysm will be perfect right away?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spurmwhale View Post
    same thing people said in early lich king who QQ'd about pallys, dk's, etc. and funny enough Blizzard still had to do a TON of nerfing to those classes thoughout lich king even at 80 to bring them down.

    fact is so many people are brainwashed to whatever blizzard tells them(especially on mmo champion) they don't realize how much of a work in progress everything is all of the time.

    its just a lame copout to pretend everything is going to come together at 85 as things currently are. people need to stop saying that. guarantee there would be MAJOR issues at 85 if we were playing in it assuming equal scaling...
    So you've designed a better game for us to all go play? No...

    I'll agree with one point. Everything does always seem to be a work in progress. It seems when things get close to being balanced we get a major patch or xpac and start from scratch again.

    That being said, if Blizzard wasn't trying to constantly improve gameplay, the game would have died a long time ago. I don't think everyone believes exactly what Blizzard tells them. I think Blizzard makes mistakes all the time, but with a game of its size it's to be expected. If they waited until every little bug was worked out we would be waiting a long long time for any new content.

    Plus too, when you release a product live that has a few unknown bugs/balance issues they are quickly reported on and they know where to focus their efforts on improvements. People in the community, especially the WoW community are very quick to freak out over any imbalance or bug they find and scream bloody murder (see the forums..any one..take your pick). People just need to chill out and if it bugs you that much play something else for a week or two..

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spurmwhale View Post
    guess you're the noob that just started playing WoW at 4.01 so i think you should stfu noob. if you have a memory at all of Lich King people said the same shit here, and it turned out completely wrong and imbalanced at 80. keep straw manning it tho like the retard you are, i for one am wiser than your pea brain group think brainwashed mentality.

    you have to be EXTREMELY NAIVE or retarded to think all of this right now would be balanced at 85. which one are you? i'm guessing retarded.
    But you see buddy, the differences with balancing at the start of wotlk and at the start of cata are completely different. Combat rating requirements will rise dramatically, so it will be much more difficult to get close to maxing out anything.

    Relative DPS will not be blowing out against the larger health pools on players and mobs. You wont be burning down that fresh 85 player or raid trash quite as easily as you were in naxx or in wintergrasp. In turn to this, healing output will be drastically different since your HPM will not scale the same.

    In fact, I don't even remember reading anywhere that wotlk would be the expansion that claimed class balance would be perfected at 80. Please provide some quotes around this showing that blizz had a similar intent with wotlk to what they have in cata.

    As 'wise' as you may think you are, you are actually not. In all of your posts it just seems like you want to have a cry about something because you can, and keep harping on about some point when nobody else agrees : )

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Spurmwhale View Post
    same thing people said in early lich king who QQ'd about pallys, dk's, etc. and funny enough Blizzard still had to do a TON of nerfing to those classes thoughout lich king even at 80 to bring them down.

    fact is so many people are brainwashed to whatever blizzard tells them(especially on mmo champion) they don't realize how much of a work in progress everything is all of the time.

    its just a lame copout to pretend everything is going to come together at 85 as things currently are. people need to stop saying that. guarantee there would be MAJOR issues at 85 if we were playing in it assuming equal scaling...
    You picked a horrible example. Paladins and Death Knights did require a ton of balancing after release. Lets look at that statement. The class that had HUGE FUNDAMENTAL CHANGES and the class THAT WAS OUTRIGHT NEW TO THE GAME both required a lot of work balancing. Now every class has huge new changes, so yeah expect a lot of balancing.

    Saying everything is going to come together at 85 is not a copout. You compare it to the way at 70 people said things were going to come together at 80. Guess what? They did. Admittedly it wasn't some time into 80, but the fact is it came together. I won't even go into the fact that there is almost just shy of 2 months to fix things until cata releases. Oh wait I just did.

    Your second paragraph is going to get you flamed out right. Being content to wait until blizzard gets more things sorted out, doesn't make you brain washed. It makes you NOT a selfish brat with an inflated sense of entitlement. And then to say that a game of this magnitude is constantly a work in progress is like saying the Pacific Ocean is a giant body of water. Well no shit.

    Game isn't balanced around 80 isn't a cop out. It's a fact. We are test monkeys right now. People just need to get use to it. I can't even play WSG cause every time I click on the flag to recap/pickup I get dc'ed.

    Having taken 2 years of computer programming in high school( I mean real programming, with C++, Java, and Basic not Excel/Access) I would reason that a system with as much code as WoW could have tons of bugs, and be tedious to fix completely.

    Honestly, I don't know what you were hoping to get with this post. I would sincerely like to tell you to just wait it, cause thats really all we can do.

  13. #53
    It will all work out in the end. To base pvp off right now as 80 would be a little harsh. If that was the case blizz would have to nerf 14-29 hunters and rogues due to them being so beast at that lvl.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Infringement View Post
    Wait it out and Start your QQing in a Reasonable and Intelligable manner after the next arena season Starts.
    i think my complaints are perfectly intelligible. In fact, i try to make them extra-simple so that people can follow. I don't think that putting out a product with an obvious flaw should be acceptable when they're able to fix it. I would've much rather kept PvPing pre-4.0.1, be it bland and fair, than to PvP with a broken system which was only pushed out to appease deadlines. You disagree. That's fine. But my argument is not unintelligible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infringement View Post
    ATM Blizzs thoughts on PvP are this: The Arena season has ended, Cata will be out Soon, PvP doesnt matter now.
    I also think it's crazy that you believe it's unreasonable for me to expect a playable product, but you don't consider this unreasonable.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    ...and your credentials as a game designer can be found...where?
    And your creditentials as a professional critic of game design can be found... where?

    See what I did there? You shouldn't be going around acting as if not having "credentials" for something means a person can can't bring up good points, be correct about an issue, or whatever.

  16. #56
    Hey OP- as you stated in your second post. It is actually this site, MMO Champion, that allows horrible little teenage fucks to come in here and pretend they know shit about this game. Like i see this ret pally always talking comeplete fucking nonsense and has yet to be banned. I have multiple account to avoid MMO Champions fucked up moderators because they ban me for setting the idiots straight. Apparently I am the bad guy here.

    And now you have one fewer. ~Lysah
    Last edited by Lysah; 2010-10-19 at 05:32 PM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenderoni View Post
    I'm so glad you shared this original perspective with us. It was totally worth starting a new thread on this topic because there aren't a hundred others.
    ^This

  18. #58
    WOW,OP sounds like my 2 month old nephew.
    Last edited by pse7en; 2010-10-19 at 03:12 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Spurmwhale View Post
    same thing people said in early lich king who QQ'd about pallys, dk's, etc. and funny enough Blizzard still had to do a TON of nerfing to those classes thoughout lich king even at 80 to bring them down.

    fact is so many people are brainwashed to whatever blizzard tells them(especially on mmo champion) they don't realize how much of a work in progress everything is all of the time.

    its just a lame copout to pretend everything is going to come together at 85 as things currently are. people need to stop saying that. guarantee there would be MAJOR issues at 85 if we were playing in it assuming equal scaling...
    There's your problem, You're assuming everyone scales equally. The stat system is still very very dynamic, couple that with Talents, Trained abilities, coefficient changes to spells and stats as you level, Diminishing returns on stats, increased health pools, changes to major and secondary stats. You could very well be OP OP OP at 80 and be UP at 85.

    Your point draws no conclusions from fact, it assumes the system isn't what it is and from deeper posts it seems you assume anyone who doesn't agree with you is an "idiot" or "moron". I do not deny that there are balance issues at 80, I will not deny that there could be balance issues when we all hit 85 and start on our best gear. Blizz will iron out the major wrinkles pretty quickly. No reason to get your undies all bunched up.
    Quite often, the difference between an idiot and a genius is simply a matter of success rate.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spurmwhale View Post
    actually i'm stating something that MOST people here haven't realized yet, or against what they currently believe(that everything comes together so perfectly at 85). there is a reality and wishful thinkiing of what they're told. i choose reality. but people get butthurt over that...
    If you think everyone who is arguing with you honestly believes this then you're really just full of shit. No one is saying everything is going to come together in a neat little package at 85. That has never happened with any MMO and never will happen. What we are trying to impress on you is that you're trying to judge your 85 experience by your experience at 80. I am saying this simply will not work. You miss out on an entire stat (if you think your mastery rating through reforging is significant, I really feel sorry for you) and the gear itemized for 85, as well as skills that come as you level up. Just because you feel underpowered or you feel that someone else is overpowered now doesn't mean they will be at 85.

    Look at Arcane Mages. Arcane Mages at 70 shit all over people. Arcane Barrage was extremely overpowered at 70. At 80, Arcane Barrage was mediocre at best. It didn't hit for much more than at 70 (in fact I do believe it hit less at 80 than it did at 70) and with health pools much larger than they were at 70, it ended up doing less damage overall. It had to get BUFFED at 80. Are you beginning to see at least a little of what I'm saying?

    Trying to judge what will happen at 85 by what is happening right now is a bad idea. Sure Blizzard can try to assuage the effects right now (say, the resilience buff) but any effort they put into balancing it beyond something quick and easy is just a waste of time.

    Like I said before, I would rather them work out all the technical bugs (hello holy power, etc) than worry about a few butthurt players who cannot accept that at 80, nothing really matters anymore.

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