Irae AoD vs. Cho'gal 10

[SLUSHER]

#8 guild in the world (using wowprogress) killing a boss on normal mode on day 1 does not automatically mean undertuned.

[Cocobutters]

It might be undertuned because it's beta and blizzard wants things tested by more. Plus, the top 10 guilds in the world wiped on it for hours, imagine just your regular guild.

[Lumocolor]

I for one understand what your trying to say OP, 10 mans are easy compared to 25 mans and that makes all the people who've been saying for months that there is no way in hell that they can make the 2 versions equally hard correct all this time.

A bunch of fights have mechanics where people have to spread out and 10 mans make those mechanics a joke compared to getting 25 people 10yrds apart.

[bobbert116]

guys, out of the 1 million guilds who will do this, 1 guild kills it today so 1/10000000 means it's undertuned. Still love clicking your armories below in your signatures of all the posers in here crying it's not hard and not seeing heroic lich king dead yet.

This x 10000

[Zeppelin535]

Sure it may be undertuned, that is what testing is for. However, people seem to be forgetting that this is NORMAL mode, there are still heroic modes of these encounters yet to come, which I do also hope will be much more difficult than their normal mode counterparts, however difficult they end up being by release.

[Eec003]

This x 10000

and some of this

It might be undertuned because it's beta and blizzard wants things tested by more. Plus, the top 10 guilds in the world wiped on it for hours, imagine just your regular guild.

---------- Post added 2010-10-22 at 12:07 AM ----------

Sure it may be undertuned, that is what testing is for. However, people seem to be forgetting that this is NORMAL mode, there are still heroic modes of these encounters yet to come, which I do also hope will be much more difficult than their normal mode counterparts, however difficult they end up being by release.

nice kingslayer title, but cho'galls underturned guys!

[Swizzle]

Lesson learned form this thread: Don't give an impression of a fight you've done to people who have not.

[Sigmar]

Step 1: Learn fight on 25-man.
Step 2: Reduce to 10-man to cull out the retards.
Step 3: One-shot fight on 10-man with your top raiders.
Step 4: Go on forums and say 10-man is too easy.

Classic elitist mindset. Nothing to see here.

[Kaynot]

i watched first trys of your 25-man raid.Tbh Chogall didnt show any groundbreaking new boss mechanics,i dont know for sure but i think that Chogall was tanked the whole time by one person,and that made a fight very "dynamic" and "mindblowing".
From the point of view of your ele shaman all he had to do was to dps/switch targets/move/interrupt i kind of missed use of grounding totem etc., simply because fight didnt required it.

I expect now some nerdrage on my post,because it was easy mode,but however imo this game could use some new boss mechanics,not recycled ones.

[Foibles]

I'm not sure where the OP said it was too easy, just that it was easier.

[Sigmar]

I'm not sure where the OP said it was too easy, just that it was easier.

Even with equal difficulties, 10-man will be "easier" since you're cutting out 15 potential mouthbreathers who can screw up your attempts at bosses. You trim the fat, so to speak. This is what made 25-mans better than 40-mans, and why more raiders will pursue 10-mans over 25-mans.

Naturally, people who can't admit that 10-man raiders can be skilled (like Irae AoD and other top 100 guilds) will cry foul, when all that holds then back is fifteen dead weight raiders.

[Foibles]

I would venture a guess that the other 15 members of Irae AoD aren't mouthbreathers. They probably also went to form a second 10 man.

[Sigmar]

I would venture a guess that the other 15 members of Irae AoD aren't mouthbreathers. They probably also went to form a second 10 man.

Maybe they're not, but the point of the argument stands. Being able to focus the most skilled raiders into one group will make content easier. The fewer people you need to focus, the better. The OP should realize this before trying to start the usual controversy.

[Epiclurker]

Ok guys lets allow the boss to be tested.
Yes Sir, sending out the announcement. Should we keep the boss damage low?
No way, full strength.

The boss is tested and released, but then 3 months later...

SIR SIR!
What!
Players say that phase 3 of the boss fight in dungeon X is bugged all to hell. It keeps corrupting their game data.
Didn't we test the damn boss in Beta?
Yes sir.
Well why didn't the problem show up then?
Well you said make the boss full strength.
So what?
The boss was so hard no one ever made it to phase 3.
....Crap.

[Zinnin]

I lol'd pretty hard when Solace got owned.

And yeah, learning the fight for hours and getting within 8% of a kill doesn't mean the fight is easy, it means you had a lot of practice and then finally beat it.

Common Sense is a Super Power.

Lets say your guild worked on Lich King 25 for 4 hours, then you split into 10s and one shot it. Sure the experience from doing 25s helped, but you can still see how the 10 man version was easier.

[Themessiah]

This idea that 10 man 'must' in some way be easier is nonsense. There is no reason why abilities couldn't be tuned to hit harder/faster in the 10 man raids to compensate for the selection of the 'best' raiders to raid it, and for the easier movement and set up logistics. This idea that it is impossible to compensate for the factors that have classically made 10 man raiding easier isn't actually justifiable. They could reduce all your stats by 99.9% if they so chose. I'd like to see people so enthusiastically calling it easy then.

[Herecius]

Though I agree that there really is no real way Blizzard can hope to make 10man quite as tough as 25, I feel it's worth pointing out that this is normal mode. Blizzard has stated already that normal mode encounters can be tough, but they should be absolutely doable with a competent group of people. That it took you guys hours on normal mode to get him to 8% on 25man makes me pretty happy. It is my hope that this learning curve is exponentially steeper once heroic is switched on, when Cataclysm hits live, since I imagine there will be no heroic mode testing. Not on the beta servers, anyways.

[Gravity16]

guys, out of the 1 million guilds who will do this, 1 guild kills it today so 1/10000000 means it's undertuned. Still love clicking your armories below in your signatures of all the posers in here crying it's not hard and not seeing heroic lich king dead yet.

this

[Zinnin]

This idea that 10 man 'must' in some way be easier is nonsense. There is no reason why abilities couldn't be tuned to hit harder/faster in the 10 man raids to compensate for the selection of the 'best' raiders to raid it, and for the easier movement and set up logistics. This idea that it is impossible to compensate for the factors that have classically made 10 man raiding easier isn't actually justifiable. They could reduce all your stats by 99.9% if they so chose. I'd like to see people so enthusiastically calling it easy then.

The fact that 10 mans are easier comes from the fact that many, many, many mechanics are designed around spreading out \ grouping up. One of the reasons 10 man Lich King is so much easier then 25 is you only have one valk, and far less people to screw up Defile. You also have the issue that 25s can make a boss require one more tank then normal. Both PP HM and Halion HM required extra tanks in 25 (although now PP HM 25 you can outgear quite a bit) Thats part of the reason Halion 10 HM doesn't have adds...you just can't afford to have 3 tanks in 10 man. Its mechanics like those that make it so 10 mans are inherently easier then 25. Sure you can tune it up, and sure some boss fights might become pretty equal for tuning..but there is always going to be a mechanic thats easier when you have less people to screw it up\ more room to avoid things.

[Themessiah]

The fact that 10 mans are easier comes from the fact that many, many, many mechanics are designed around spreading out \ grouping up. One of the reasons 10 man Lich King is so much easier then 25 is you only have one valk, and far less people to screw up Defile. You also have the issue that 25s can make a boss require one more tank then normal. Both PP HM and Halion HM required extra tanks in 25 (although now PP HM 25 you can outgear quite a bit) Thats part of the reason Halion 10 HM doesn't have adds...you just can't afford to have 3 tanks in 10 man. Its mechanics like those that make it so 10 mans are inherently easier then 25. Sure you can tune it up, and sure some boss fights might become pretty equal for tuning..but there is always going to be a mechanic thats easier when you have less people to screw it up\ more room to avoid things.

I agree with everything you say, bar your conclusion. It cannot be the case, regardless of any other factor, that if in 10 man raids you made boss abilities hit 10 times harder, made player health 10 times lower, and made abilities come 10 times faster that this encounter would be easier than 25 man. It would be near impossible to complete. You may say at this point that such differences would lead to it being to an altogether different encounter. I say to that that the differences need not be so extreme, anywhere near so extreme that is, to up 10 man content to the difficulty of 25 man raiding.

So while there may certainly be aspects of 10 man raiding which make the raiding inherently easier, it can be compensated for through the tuning of each encounter alone.