Thread: Muti vs Sub PvP

  1. #1

    Muti vs Sub PvP

    A little background on me before we start;

    Ive played rogue for almost 5 years now, got gladiator twice, raiding, blah blah...you get the point.

    My rogue hasnt gotten much play time in the last few months since I have been leveling and having fun with my new shaman and my other 80s. Anyways, 4.0.1 comes around and I don't really touch him until a few days ago (note that this is a new rogue, so im only avg gear level 235) and I am heavily dissapointed.

    Mutilate PvP feels like it has such little urgency to it. Blizzard forces the spec to go deadly poison and use rupture, the biggest problem is that this is all build over time stuff so you wont be killing anyone in a nuke fest. Muti will no longer get prep and that blows, hardcore... Ive been doing some BGs and I am so beyong frusterated that there is literally no way to beat certain classes, it is such a huge hit to survivability, mobility, and damage...

    The Vanish change is probably the worst thing about it, Vanish is so...fixed? It may sound wierd but you just cant do that after a class has been built around the old move (blizzard has even admitted it). Twice I can recall today times that I have tried to vanish something but to no avail, still getting globaled or frost nova'd in stealth while the mage gets away and is able to kite.

    Another big problem I had was rogue vs. rogue, something that I was known across the bg7 for being very very good at. I will admit that I am currently playing with over 300ms and under 25 fps but I should still be able to outskill other rogues, but alas, Sublety rogues are actually given me problems. They have everything, more indurance, better burst with minimal setup, double cooldowns, better mobility... There isnt a thing I can think about that Muti is better than Sub at.

    Ive been playing mutilate for over 3 years now, through hard times and not, but this is such a devastating blow to battleground/world pvp that I am actually considering dropping the class I have loved for so long. I will admit that Muti may have some potential in a lv 85 arena setting (as long as blizzard's estimations on damage are right...), but even then I can see very big problems.

    Thanks for reading, what do you think?

    edit: Sorry for god awful grammer, its late, im tired, and I don't have the mental strength to correct them all.
    Last edited by Diaxx; 2010-10-23 at 04:53 AM.

  2. #2
    I play Subt now and it owns. Go with that definately. 5/0/31 is what I use. I'd even stick with it in Cata.

    I don't see the point in mutilate anymore for bg's or arena. Vendetta can be cloaked or dispelled so it's a wasted talent.

    You can't go wrong with Shadowstep. :-)

  3. #3
    Sub is definitely better than mut at the moment for pvp in my oppinion. Mut rogues attacking me are pretty much a joke, and since sub is still a newer flavor of the month build I have found many sub rogues don't quite know all the tricks yet. I never stopped being sub for pvp during the time it fell out of favor, mut was always such a boring pvp spec, so it's been an extra added bit of fun that sub is a bit more empowered now. Vanish sure has seemed better than ever to me since the patch, but that's just my experience with it so far.

  4. #4
    Sigh, I really dont want to turn to Sub. I might just level my rogue in Cata and hope for the best, maybe Blizzard will get it right?

    Note: I have played Sub before, and naturally alot of skill carries over, but I just do not like the playstyle; I always felt it was too cheesy

  5. #5
    Sub is definitely the better PvP spec at the moment but I haven't run into one yet that just out and out smashed me in my Mut spec. I'd say I'm averagely geared PvP-wise but I'm not having a ton of trouble except in the case of healers. I've been chalking that up to Healers having an near endless-seeming Mana pool though.

    Honestly I think it's more likely that you're having troubles due to the combination of not having played Mut spec in awhile in addition to all the changes and the slightly below average gear.

    Edit: I will say though when I first jumped on my Mut spec I did feel rather.. bland. But after reforging my gear to a mix of Mastery and Haste I've felt much more potent.

  6. #6
    Sub is pretty good atm I'll admit, but there's certain classes that you just can't beat as a rogue right now *cough* ferals. I've tried Assassination, I do believe Mutilate was changed to hit a lot harder now? Anyways one advantage Assassination has above any spec atm is the ability to ignore armor throughout most of it's damage output, especially with rupture doing awesome damage with the new talents.

    I think the spec plays just fine if used right, you also have Quickening with Nightstalker which stacks and allows you to move at a whooping 90%+ of normal moving speed in stealth! even more if youre a nelf! apparently someone said it stacks but i dunno check up on this.

    I will admit Sub has the edge right now but Assassination is definately not completely useless!

    I dont think you should be 'complaining' about Vanish. We all knew it was a bug and we all knew it was going to get fixed if not in months then in years. Vanish is working as intended now so let's adapt and be happy
    Last edited by Varian; 2010-10-23 at 02:56 PM.
    I would agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Varian View Post
    Sub is pretty good atm I'll admit, but there's certain classes that you just can't beat as a rogue right now *cough* ferals. I've tried Assassination, I do believe Mutilate was changed to hit a lot harder now? Anyways one advantage Assassination has above any spec atm is the ability to ignore armor throughout most of it's damage output, especially with rupture doing awesome damage with the new talents.

    I think the spec plays just fine if used right, you also have Quickening with Nightstalker which stacks and allows you to move at a whooping 90%+ of normal moving speed in stealth! even more if youre a nelf! apparently someone said it stacks but i dunno check up on this.

    I will admit Sub has the edge right now but Assassination is definately not completely useless!

    I dont think you should be 'complaining' about Vanish. We all knew it was a bug and we all knew it was going to get fixed if not in months then in years. Vanish is working as intended now so let's adapt and be happy
    The problem with Vanish is that as far as I see, they havnt made any compensation for it. Vanish in its older state was the only reason rogues could play against certain comps, although I will admit it is better against hunters but infinately worse against classes like mages and warlocks.

    I reforged all my crit into haste, and it has helped a little bit. Now that I look, it seems my character fell victim to losing all his enchants in 4.0.1 so likely the reason I am having some problems is being way outgeared.

  8. #8
    Vanish is stupid. I often see rogue after he vanished, on my mage, and I can cone of cold him, which procs frostbite-like effect, if talented. And then deep freeze, or just finish him. He does not leave stealth during the process though, so vanish is working, lol

    I let both my 80 rogues go, and am playing a mage now. Mage is so wonderfully OP now, you should try it :P

    Also, I watched some TBC movies recently, and mutilate was SO much better then... It hit for like 1/3 of enemy HP. It was like, BOOOM, mutilate. Now it takes like 1/30 of HP pool, and does not matter anymore. I loved 41/5 spec, you could feel like a MAN with on-demand super burst - cold blooded mutilate + hand rocket. 44/2 had so much weaker burst. And now it is just plain stupid, and is not going nowhere. I mean, like, Vendetta? Really?

    I do not like dagger ShD also, it's burst is much worse than 41/5 was

    Brb 1 vs 10'ing on my mage :P

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by mtr View Post
    Vanish is stupid. I often see rogue after he vanished, on my mage, and I can cone of cold him, which procs frostbite-like effect, if talented. And then deep freeze, or just finish him. He does not leave stealth during the process though, so vanish is working, lol

    I let both my 80 rogues go, and am playing a mage now. Mage is so wonderfully OP now, you should try it :P

    Also, I watched some TBC movies recently, and mutilate was SO much better then... It hit for like 1/3 of enemy HP. It was like, BOOOM, mutilate. Now it takes like 1/30 of HP pool, and does not matter anymore. I loved 41/5 spec, you could feel like a MAN with on-demand super burst - cold blooded mutilate + hand rocket. 44/2 had so much weaker burst. And now it is just plain stupid, and is not going nowhere. I mean, like, Vendetta? Really?

    I do not like dagger ShD also, it's burst is much worse than 41/5 was

    Brb 1 vs 10'ing on my mage :P
    Yeah actually I experienced the same bug last night, now that you mention it, whilst duelling a spriest He could dot me up becaue i was visible to him during Vanish mode but Im guessing this is just another bug that needs fixing however being immune to damage during Vanish was never blizzard's idea, it was just temporary but lets see what happens, I hope they fix that bug though.
    I would agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong.

  10. #10
    I agree, that the "New Vanish" is not entirely what we wanted. It will most likely take us another year to have them think about allowing us to resist snares during that 3 seconds and yes they need to fix targeting. You can run and vanish and have had hunter pets locate me several miles away...they will come running up to me and wont attack. No hunter mark present...

    ATM Sub, as everyone has mentioned, has the survivability needed to compete with one on one combat. But it does lack in the same areas it did before, such as slow energy regeneration and if you want to have the greatest combo point gain you have to get the majority of the tree before thinking about some combat utility or assassination's damage modifiers. How many would chose, in the combat tree, the sprint, IR , and aggression when 85?

  11. #11
    I first tried out Mutilate and the damage was pretty bad. Mutilate hitting for 2k crits, melee hitting alright, Envenom bug fixed and taking forever for DP to stack for decent Envenom damage 8kish if I recall correctly, and then poisons doing the bulk of the damage with 850 wound hits and 1.5K DP ticks. The burst was amazing though, but had to be setup and wasn't as good as 3 shotting anything that moves like Mages.

    Then I tried Sub, oh boy did I fall in love. I loved Mutilate since BC but 10k lolAmbooshes, 3-4k non crit Backstabs, and 7-10k Eviscerates? Combined with the burst and control of Shadowdance as well as Subs library of short CDs to use with many ways to use them in combination. Damage is better in the short and long term compared to Assassination. Plate? Sub still hits hard but Assassination makes quicker work out of them.

    All in all though Sub has better survivability, mobility, and generally damage.

  12. #12
    Deleted
    Mutilate for dealing with heavy armor
    Sub for casters

    I play only melee classes so I welcome this. In cata, sub rogues will suck balls vs. armor.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Mutilate for dealing with heavy armor
    Sub for casters

    I play only melee classes so I welcome this. In cata, sub rogues will suck balls vs. armor.
    I really doubt they would 'suck' against heavy armor. They will do less damage than Assassination periodically and may have a little more challenge in beating them but make no mistake with Find Weakness, Serrated Blades, Hemo Buffs, Sanguinary Veins & Ambushes Critting like hell, it probably wont be as sucky as you think.
    I would agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong.

  14. #14
    More armor means more armor to reach 1% damage reduction. As long as the physical damage reduction will be based on % and not per point, it won't change anything. Subtlety should be the same in Cata, although we can't expect to have this high a level of burst compared to total hp.

  15. #15
    Muti is not so terrible if u got up-to-date gear. I have not been playing much arenas last season so i run with a mix of 264-270 pvp gear and some nice heroic ICC epics. I bet that Sub rogues have same problems with 1300+ resil healers, but the only uncofortable thing is - I have to run around in stealth waiting for vanish to refresh. And i dont really have trouble in 1v1 vs a Sub rogue.

  16. #16
    Mutilate has fallen behind a little since hybrid specs have been hurt from the new talent trees.

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