1. #1

    Why no love for Reckoning?

    Hey, guys! I've played a paladin since BC and I have really never seen any love for Reckoning. I love the talent, but every build I see leaves reckoning out. I don't quite understand all the game mechanics, but I do think I understand that when bosses parry your attacks it resets their swing timer and Reckoning makes you swing more thus increasing the chance the boss parries your attack. I also thought I had read somewhere that this would not be the case in Cata.

    All that being said (assuming I am understanding it correctly) why is this talent even still in the game? Is it strictly a leveling talent? Does it make me a completely terribad tank to take the talent? Thanks in advance for your insights.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJebba View Post
    Hey, guys! I've played a paladin since BC and I have really never seen any love for Reckoning. I love the talent, but every build I see leaves reckoning out. I don't quite understand all the game mechanics, but I do think I understand that when bosses parry your attacks it resets their swing timer and Reckoning makes you swing more thus increasing the chance the boss parries your attack. I also thought I had read somewhere that this would not be the case in Cata.

    All that being said (assuming I am understanding it correctly) why is this talent even still in the game? Is it strictly a leveling talent? Does it make me a completely terribad tank to take the talent? Thanks in advance for your insights.
    Reckoning is now better then most of the other talents we would pick (Grand Crusader + Hallowed Ground)

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Protozoa7 View Post
    Reckoning is now better then most of the other talents we would pick (Grand Crusader + Hallowed Ground)
    Reckoning might be better single target threat, but single target threat isn't really a problem. Unless you're really good at watching procs and tab targeting reckoning doesn't really help with AoE, but GC + HG both help single target.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by deneweth View Post
    Reckoning might be better single target threat, but single target threat isn't really a problem. Unless you're really good at watching procs and tab targeting reckoning doesn't really help with AoE, but GC + HG both help single target.
    Single target consecration is RARELY used and GC procs are so lackluster if they aren't timed perfectly *i.e 1 HP CS you get a gc proc* then it gets wasted as well.

    I am not a math guy but ppl have done the math. Both those talents fall behind reckoning. It's the way it is, and GC doesn't really fit inline outside of trash.

  5. #5
    Raid tanking is all about single target threat. Unless you plan on doing nothing but heroics, reckoning is still worth more. I actually just specced out of HG because I was never using concencrate, just tab targeting with hammer of righteous. I still have GC, but I think i might trade that in for more points in holy and ret when cata hits.

    Reckoning was bad pre 4.0.1 because it was 5 talent points. If you wanted better threat, you got more bang for your buck spending those 5 points in the ret tree. Now it's only 2 points, thus, worth it.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by hyperionx View Post
    Reckoning was bad pre 4.0.1 because it was 5 talent points. If you wanted better threat, you got more bang for your buck spending those 5 points in the ret tree. Now it's only 2 points, thus, worth it.
    I don't believe that was why it was bad. Wasn't it along the lines of how it was activated.

    Basically pre-4.0.1 it sucked.
    Now it is 'required' for all prot paladins.

    People just take time to adjust to change.

  7. #7
    This is damage analysis for per point in our prot talents. taken from maintankadin forums

    http://twitch.tv/towelliee TowelRapaport #WoWsheet

  8. #8
    Deleted
    grand crusader might seem nice, but if you think about it, it's more or less a waste of talent points.

    normal rotation for protection currently is 393939:

    0.0 CS
    1.5 judgement
    3.0 CS
    4.5 either avenging shield or holy wrath
    6.0 CS
    7.5 shield of the righteous.
    9.0 and onwards: repeat the above.

    only when you start to try and replace the 9's with a shield throw you will notice a difference towards grand crusader. but i personally don't use those procs. i stick to a rotation.

  9. #9
    Epic! Calon's Avatar
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    I've tried to always have some points in Reck, simply because when it did proc it was a nice little boost in threat. But, it's always been hit or miss, if it procs early, yay, if not, then it doesn't really matter.

    That previously posted chart will be nice for new tanks.

  10. #10
    Deleted
    Wasn't Reckoning changed anyway? I think I remember it having a really low chance to proc from block/damage around 8% or 10% something like that and in 4.0.1 it went to 20% chance to proc from a block?

    It went from being one of the lowest TPS talents to basically one of the highest in 4.0.1

    It's was always hilarious for a Prot trash spec in ICC though when we had SoComm could crank out around 9k+ DPS.
    Last edited by mmoc5c883e5f63; 2010-11-03 at 01:57 PM.

  11. #11
    uptime wasn't the real issue. Nor even the five talent points (we had more of em)

    it was that melee damage wasn't threat multiplied. Now that it is, reckoning does real TPS.


    here's hoping they stop making fast tank weapons.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Maenetus View Post
    uptime wasn't the real issue. Nor even the five talent points (we had more of em)

    it was that melee damage wasn't threat multiplied. Now that it is, reckoning does real TPS.


    here's hoping they stop making fast tank weapons.
    Having been in Cataclysm since Alpha all way now through raiding the new bosses I can tell you there are no 1.5 1.6 tank weapons. They are ALL 2.6. We do have ot fight with dps like fury for Single Minded Fury for some that are Hit/Exp but others you will see are like Parry/Master or something/Mastery.
    http://twitch.tv/towelliee TowelRapaport #WoWsheet

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by towelliee View Post
    Having been in Cataclysm since Alpha all way now through raiding the new bosses I can tell you there are no 1.5 1.6 tank weapons. They are ALL 2.6. We do have ot fight with dps like fury for Single Minded Fury for some that are Hit/Exp but others you will see are like Parry/Master or something/Mastery.
    You seem to always have good commentary thanks for the info.
    I went to the woods bc I wished to live deliberately to front only the essential facts of life & see if I could not learn what it had to teach & not when I came to die discover that I had not lived.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Maenetus View Post
    1) uptime wasn't the real issue.
    2) Nor even the five talent points (we had more of em)
    3) it was that melee damage wasn't threat multiplied. Now that it is, reckoning does real TPS.
    I disagree...
    1) With a 2% chance per talent point to proc on being HIT the uptime was insanely low and unreliable (might as well not proc for a whole minute) - now it's a 10% chance on our 50% block.
    2) See 1) : The chance per talent point was wayyyyy too low and even if you'd waste all 5 talent points it would have been weak.
    3) Threat wasn't really a problem in 3.3.5 so the only reason to pick up dps talents... was to get more dps no matter what source of damage and reckoning didn't even provide that.

  15. #15
    the uptime and talent point costs where issues, I didn't say they weren't.

    BUT the fundamental design flaw was still that melee hits had very little value, even if it had 100% uptime and no talent cost it would have still be fundamentally flawed.

  16. #16
    Until someone proves that bosses in Cata don't parry haste, reckoning stays off the radar.

    Even in ICC, Sindy parry hasting was causing a LOT of problems. I tried it a couple nights and got tired of getting insta-gibbed by breath and double melee swing.

    Sure it helped threat a lot, but me dying vs the dps having to wait an extra 1-2 seconds.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by wyrdone View Post
    Until someone proves that bosses in Cata don't parry haste, reckoning stays off the radar.

    Even in ICC, Sindy parry hasting was causing a LOT of problems. I tried it a couple nights and got tired of getting insta-gibbed by breath and double melee swing.

    Sure it helped threat a lot, but me dying vs the dps having to wait an extra 1-2 seconds.
    If parry hastes are getting you killed stack more expertise gear on fights where the boss parry hastes. Bottom line for reckoning vs GC in my opinion with real in game trials is alot of gc procs are wasted and are very unreliable in a raid setting. Its a preference whether u want to use that 1 talent pt alot of us have in HG to either go 1 into GC for luls or throw it wherever you want it.

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