Rated BGs to have same consumable/eng restrictions as arenas

[Deleted]

On one side it will prevent every PvP'er being an engineerer and people farming free action potions (heck, I did that ).

On the other hand it will mean that every PvP'er is still a JC'er primarily, or any stat increasing profession instead. You exchange a creative evil with a static evil.

This means that once more the tactics based around certain comps will have it a lot easier than others since there won't be that many ways to counter it other than an effective comp. In the end of the day I'm not sure if it is for the better or the worse. To me it's a little loss to not be able to pop a free action potion, stealth, sprint, pick up flag, pop cooldowns and run out against turtling idiots. I felt it taught them a lesson in PvP. About how to position themself to maximize the defense of a base instead of standing all in one spot one shotting the FC'er.

And to give some professions too many restrictions is to go too far. Especially when those abilities were primarily designed to make PvP more fun. The game lose a little bit of its charm if it becomes a large scale arena fight where you have to fight with "honor" against a hated enemy and not use the means available. Lorewise it makes no sense to me. :3

In terms of balance it's neither bad nor good. You'll just end up with less counters against gay setups. Sorry. Years of BG's tell me that much. I guess it's an attempt at balance, or to avoid having to tweak the professions (which would be a lot more mature of Blizzard).

iam lazy so ill just steel your post since it was like i wrote it ^^
tho iam an engi and i always will be, even have a server first engi fos from wrath! but like you said with the limitations of engi i "had" to pick up JC as a second proff.

will miss my nitro boots / fap (free action pot) so much during the rated bgs

on a sidenote tho, my lifelong pvp mate is an alc and now in cata i can finally mount..... nvm

[Swizzle]

It is not when it comes to competive gaming, lets say a hpala uses nitro boots in arena, that wouldnt be fun?

There's a HUGE difference between arena and rated BGs which you are ignoring. The objective of arena is to KILL the other guys, while the objective of rated BGs is to get 3 flag caps, reach 1600 resources, kill bosses/burn towers, flag caps, and resources. With arenas being so small and LoS-centric, nitro boosts posed a gigantic balance problem blizzard couldn't solve from s1-s5, so they decided to disable them till they could find a way to balance it. What does that mean? Hell, it means that nitro boosts could be used in arenas in s10 if they could balance it.

What would happen to your argument then?

[Darnash]

Im rather annoyed with the changes; the engineering items are not that gamechanging on a BG scale. Nitro boots cannot be used to cap flags, and any other engineering item can basically be duplicated by another class.

Other professions still retain their perks: the passive buffs from other profs now completely outweigh engineering in the RBG environment, and stuff like nets from tailoring still (I believe) remains usable. That root should be more game-changing than my ability to tactically run away.

Furthermore, most of engineering items really are escape utility. In RBGs, escaping really doesn't accomplish anything; if you run away from a base using nitro boots and live, the base still gets capped.

Overzealous is the only word I can think of atm.

[Algore]

There's a HUGE difference between arena and rated BGs which you are ignoring. The objective of arena is to KILL the other guys, while the objective of rated BGs is to get 3 flag caps, reach 1600 resources, kill bosses/burn towers, flag caps, and resources. With arenas being so small and LoS-centric, nitro boosts posed a gigantic balance problem blizzard couldn't solve from s1-s5, so they decided to disable them till they could find a way to balance it. What does that mean? Hell, it means that nitro boosts could be used in arenas in s10 if they could balance it.

What would happen to your argument then?

I'm sure it would be fun for the average Joe to be able to use items and long cooldown spells in rated battlegrounds, but as far as I see it, the average Joe can just queue for regular battlegrounds if those mean that much to him that this is a dealbreaker.

How different is the Arathi Basin experience in a rated battleground match as opposed to a non-rated one, really, besides there being a ranking and winning Conquest points instead of Honor ones?

The reasonsing behind those restrictions for competitive play is sound.

You would have to pick up engineering for rated battlegrounds so you could use the likes of bombs.
This would be mandatory.

You would be able to use items that were never meant to be used in such a context as well to impact the outcome of battle in ways Blizzard cannot even imagine at the moment.

Needless to say, how many potions would be used every single game? To remain competitive, a player would have to use more potions in a week for rated battlegrounds than any raider would use in a year.

Speaking of potions, the likes of Free Action Potion and Swiftness Potion would run rampant.

Nobody abuses those in regular battlegrounds, because it just doesn't matter that much...
But it a competitive environment, it would turn ugly, fast.

They've restricted you to use either elixirs or flasks. They made flasks last a long time, and cost practicaly as much as a regular potion. They've restricted the need to always bring out food by making a particular food item that could give Well Fed to the entire raid...

Let's take a raider, out of the blue:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...Sousi&gn=Vigil

This guy has only played since WotLK.
How do I know? It's a death knight...

He qualifies as a serious raider.
How do I know? He killed Heroic Lich King 21 times.

So counting raiding, dungeons, leveling up, and any other time that guy has played, he's used a grand total 106 Runic Healing Potions.

That's 100 potions in 2 years.



Allow potions to be used in Rated BG. You'll use 100 potions in a week.

Your argument has no basis in reality when comparing the frequency of usage of potions in competitive PvP and competitive PvE.






Needless to say...

Would giving everyone a Free Will Potion ability on a CD along with a health potion ability add that much depth to the game? No...

[Voodookiller]

I was going to lvl engineering but, meah, not anymore now ;O its the coolest proffession & it gets always removed or blocked, y ok 10 people with rocket boots go take wsg flag yo gl gg wp , but still, meah

[Jerion]

Some eng things would be OP in bgs, things like bombs that aoe incapacitate. But things like nitro boots and glove enchants should stay. Eng will be at a disadvantage to anyone with a different prof now.

[Cathras]

I never QQed about any other change blizz made but this one......Some argument that teams without eng would always lose are complete BS.Other people have other professions and bonuses that engis dont.Its just the same with DKs and their tanking trees.Blizz stated proudly that every Dk spec would be quite viable as tank.Months later:Blizz didnt get it balanced enough so they go the easy way and made blood the tank spec.And thats the same lazyness with the RBG and eng.Maybe the restrict some gadget but not all.If FAP and swiftness potion are restricted it would be ok with me but not something like nitro boots,hand rocket,parachute and bombs.I can understand that they did it with arena but with RBG they should try to balance it.And to you guys thinking that a team with eng would always win:You must play very bad if somebody beats you only because he is a eng

[Swizzle]

I'm sure it would be fun for the average Joe to be able to use items and long cooldown spells in rated battlegrounds, but as far as I see it, the average Joe can just queue for regular battlegrounds if those mean that much to him that this is a dealbreaker.

How different is the Arathi Basin experience in a rated battleground match as opposed to a non-rated one, really, besides there being a ranking and winning Conquest points instead of Honor ones?

The reasonsing behind those restrictions for competitive play is sound.

You would have to pick up engineering for rated battlegrounds so you could use the likes of bombs.
This would be mandatory.

You would be able to use items that were never meant to be used in such a context as well to impact the outcome of battle in ways Blizzard cannot even imagine at the moment.

Needless to say, how many potions would be used every single game? To remain competitive, a player would have to use more potions in a week for rated battlegrounds than any raider would use in a year.

Speaking of potions, the likes of Free Action Potion and Swiftness Potion would run rampant.

Nobody abuses those in regular battlegrounds, because it just doesn't matter that much...
But it a competitive environment, it would turn ugly, fast.

They've restricted you to use either elixirs or flasks. They made flasks last a long time, and cost practicaly as much as a regular potion. They've restricted the need to always bring out food by making a particular food item that could give Well Fed to the entire raid...

Let's take a raider, out of the blue:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...Sousi&gn=Vigil

This guy has only played since WotLK.
How do I know? It's a death knight...

He qualifies as a serious raider.
How do I know? He killed Heroic Lich King 21 times.

So counting raiding, dungeons, leveling up, and any other time that guy has played, he's used a grand total 106 Runic Healing Potions.

That's 100 potions in 2 years.



Allow potions to be used in Rated BG. You'll use 100 potions in a week.

Your argument has no basis in reality when comparing the frequency of usage of potions in competitive PvP and competitive PvE.






Needless to say...

Would giving everyone a Free Will Potion ability on a CD along with a health potion ability add that much depth to the game? No...

Counter Argument: Engineering items have not won BGs since their inception. Did everyone reroll engineering for them? Did it break games? This isn't arena, a small death match oriented game with a limited map. These are large scale battles with objectives. Hell, even nitro boost ban in arenas isn't permanent, it was done because it couldn't be balanced for that SPECIFIC style of game, which is perfectly fine.

It would be like banning helmets from the NFL because you can't use them in the NBA.

[Doylez]

I'm glad the team with the most free action potions/swiftness potions and engineering tools wont be winning the battle, but instead the best playing team.

True. It's should be about who is the better team and not about who has the most money to buy potions.
I can't believe some people actually wasted their time getting free action potions, because it was so obvious that you'll not be allowed to use them.

[Algore]

Counter Argument: Engineering items have not won BGs since their inception. Did everyone reroll engineering for them? Did it break games? This isn't arena, a small death match oriented game with a limited map. These are large scale battles with objectives. Hell, even nitro boost ban in arenas isn't permanent, it was done because it couldn't be balanced for that SPECIFIC style of game, which is perfectly fine.

It would be like banning helmets from the NFL because you can't use them in the NBA.

Define serious. Needless to say, who's arguing that they are even remotely similar? You are. You're the one who first wanted to close that bridge saying that they were used in PvE and therefore should be used in PvP.


And not all things added to a game add depth. My whole point is that the things you want included are detrimental to the game and add nothing of value not that no depth is better than depth...


100 potions in a week:

5-6 games of AB a day. Maybe less one day, maybe more another.
3-4 deaths per game, maybe.

1 potion used every time to try and prevent death.
1 potion used everytime you can as a surge of speed or to break roots.

Calculate it.

Gross exageration... sure.



And comparing NBA to NFL is like comparing Icehockey to football.
And also this is a game.

[molinator]

Totally understandable.

Agreed.

As an alchemist who regularly uses Free Action Potions, I'm fairly confident that every group would have one on their flag carrier. Not being able to stun or snare a target for 30 seconds would make worgen rogues incredible flag runners. With one free action potion they could sprint, racial sprint, prep and sprint again. It might take a little longer than 30 seconds, but it'd still be damn short.

[icegoddess]

last time i check free action pots can be dispelled QQ wouldnt be game changer, priests shamans prot warriors gtfo---> your shit would be gone

[Thallidomaniac]

last time i check free action pots can be dispelled QQ wouldnt be game changer, priests shamans prot warriors gtfo---> your shit would be gone

They were made to be undispellable back in BC.

[icegoddess]

They were made to be undispellable back in BC.

orly now. well after running a flag on my druid with a free action pot and getting purge spammed i never used them =/ this ofc was like 5 years ago in vanilla

[Swizzle]

Define serious. Needless to say, who's arguing that they are even remotely similar? You are. You're the one who first wanted to close that bridge saying that they were used in PvE and therefore should be used in PvP.


And not all things added to a game add depth. My whole point is that the things you want included are detrimental to the game and add nothing of value not that no depth is better than depth...


100 potions in a week:

5-6 games of AB a day. Maybe less one day, maybe more another.
3-4 deaths per game, maybe.

1 potion used every time to try and prevent death.
1 potion used everytime you can as a surge of speed or to break roots.

Calculate it.

Gross exageration... sure.



And comparing NBA to NFL is like comparing Icehockey to football.
And also this is a game.

When have I said anything about PvE in this thread? I'm saying that Rated BGs and Arenas shouldn't share the same item lockout since they are completely different. My whole point is that engineering has not been detrimental to battleground PvP since they were introduced, so I don't see some magical reason for it to start now. Oh wow, you used that free action potion to avoid a stun? Well, guess we have a new kill target. You used engineering bombs to incapacitate people around a flag for 2 seconds? Too bad it takes quadruple that to cap it.

Adding things doesn't always add depth, but removing things sure does reduce depth. There are racials which can be just as game breaking in a BG by this logic, and banning things in an open environment like BGs is a slippery slope.

12 bosses in a raid
2 potions per attempt
2-3 wipes per boss

Anyone can post numbers to prove a point, no matter how bad it actually is.

I'm glad you caught on to the whole "different sports" thing, perhaps you aren't so hopeless after all.
It is a game, so why are you making such a big deal about someone being able to nitro boost in a battleground?

[Deleted]

Sorry Swizzle, but pvp mechanics aren't designed around items and tools such as engineering and potions, basically it would give a huge advantage to one class/spec over another. You think you'd be the one special engineering guy in the bg? No, everyone would be running around with rocket boots and such, and Blizzard would either have to remove such items and tools from rated bgs or they would have to design pvp around such items. I would honestly like to keep my two professions because I love them, and because of all my rare recipies and formulas. Instead I would have to skip one to remain competitive, and even then I would have spend a lot of gold weekly.

Rated battlegrounds will still revovle around pvp figths, the best and most skilled pvp team will still win. You don't think a silencing/incapacitating bomb wont give one team an upper hand? A healer escaping with rocket boots + free action potion preventing a killing blow or a rogue who is able to sit on a mage to prevent any cc or damage from said mage? A healer popping a mana potion to make him and his team last a bit longer before his mana cooldown is off cooldown again? Sorry but if you don't think this will give an advantage even in bgs then I don't know what to say.
The first killing blow in battle about a node between two equally big forces still means a lot, and will usually decide the final result. Such items will easily be a causing factor.

[Naraga]

Wow, the amount of people saying it wouldn't make a difference, thats just disgracefull.

Bomb to incap everyone trying to capture that node?

MC the enemy flag carrier while he is fully dotted, problem?

Rocket boots after dieing and being ressed to make it in time to interupt that critical node capture?

Just to name 3 examples I came up with in a few seconds. And don't forget how retarded it would be if you could use pots aswell in the bg.

[Swizzle]

Wow, the amount of people saying it wouldn't make a difference, thats just disgracefull.

Bomb to incap everyone trying to capture that node?

<Insert any AoE here> does the same thing

MC the enemy flag carrier while he is fully dotted, problem?

Isn't there a class with a spell like that already?

Rocket boots after dieing and being ressed to make it in time to interupt that critical node capture?

If the stars align and you get rezzed in under 5 seconds, sure, but then take out sprint, ShS, charge/intercept/death grip/pounce at the same time.

Just to name 3 examples I came up with in a few seconds. And don't forget how retarded it would be if you could use pots aswell in the bg.

You CAN use potions in BGs, or did I miss something and health potions couldn't restore health?

---------- Post added 2010-11-11 at 01:17 AM ----------

Sorry Swizzle, but pvp mechanics aren't designed around items and tools such as engineering and potions, basically it would give a huge advantage to one class/spec over another. You think you'd be the one special engineering guy in the bg? No, everyone would be running around with rocket boots and such, and Blizzard would either have to remove such items and tools from rated bgs or they would have to design pvp around such items. I would honestly like to keep my two professions because I love them, and because of all my rare recipies and formulas. Instead I would have to skip one to remain competitive, and even then I would have spend a lot of gold weekly.

Rated battlegrounds will still revovle around pvp figths, the best and most skilled pvp team will still win. You don't think a silencing/incapacitating bomb wont give one team an upper hand? A healer escaping with rocket boots + free action potion preventing a killing blow or a rogue who is able to sit on a mage to prevent any cc or damage from said mage? A healer popping a mana potion to make him and his team last a bit longer before his mana cooldown is off cooldown again? Sorry but if you don't think this will give an advantage even in bgs then I don't know what to say.
The first killing blow in battle about a node between two equally big forces still means a lot, and will usually decide the final result. Such items will easily be a causing factor.

Rocket boots are an escape mechanism, not a kill mechanism. Engineering doesn't break BG games as is, why do people assume it would all of a sudden change? Are rated BGs going to change the mechanics and objectives of BGs? No, they're just going to assign you a rating based on your performance.

At the end of the day, it's going to be premade vs. premade, and no amount of items/racials is going to actually win a BG for you. You could say that a tank with 9/14/24 healers could win any BG since they would never die, should we ban healing from BGs to suit everyone who isn't a tank/healer?

[_Fire_]

This really sucks, I planned on getting engineering on my druid just for this reason :/

[Atelniar]

Agreed.

As an alchemist who regularly uses Free Action Potions, I'm fairly confident that every group would have one on their flag carrier. Not being able to stun or snare a target for 30 seconds would make worgen rogues incredible flag runners. With one free action potion they could sprint, racial sprint, prep and sprint again. It might take a little longer than 30 seconds, but it'd still be damn short.

There are way easier solutions to free action potions if that is the only issue. Nerf its duration. No, this is not about balance. For it will only lessen the chance to counter specific comps in the end. This is about simplification. About making the planning phase of PvP redundant. Homogenization in professions on a scale never seen before to make Rated BG's attractive even for those who can't be arsed preparing.

Professions used to be there for the sake of flavour. As it currently stands they might as well be removed. They all just increase your stats or give you pets/mounts. Professions went from being a unique choice to a unique way of boosting your stats. Since that is easier to keep in check. I don't like it when Blizzard goes back and removes content that was obviously designed for PvP. Anyone claiming Free Action Potions are not needs a reality check. The irony.

This will completely lock out certain abilities and content from the competetive environment in PvP. Less content. But humans take the easy road out of a dillema. The easy road here is to implement arena regulations instead of giving all professions a long needed review. One of the reasons I hate arena is because it feels so secluded. I don't like it when rated BG's borrow anything from arena, especially not for the sake of "balance". We all know that it never worked. Hopefully rated BG's will bring back the social aspect of PvP and its connection to guilds and the rest of the game despite taking regulations based on arena philosophy.. Even if it won't include professions completely.

Note: I'm pretty sure the racial sprint have a shared cooldown with sprint. So you could not do that to start with. The shared cooldown is around 30 seconds I think. I can't verify it as fact, but it makes sense.