Should more difficult specs do more damage?

[sicness]

No. DPS should not even be impeded by hybrid class or not, all dps should be equal, regardless of what spec you are. Let players play what they want, not what does the most damage.

[Brashara]

If you want to play a more challenging spec, more power to you. But there's no reason one should be incentivized to bring like 8 feral druids because its hard and 0 warriors or ret paladins because its easy (3.3.5). Some people legitimately enjoy playing ret paladins. Blizzard should focus on making as many specs competitive in DPS as possible and people can play whatever spec/class has the rotational difficulty they enjoy.

[Frozendekay]

I really hate it when people dish out the mage hate, I play an arcane mage, and I can tell you there is a lot more to it than just pressing one button and some cooldowns. There is a huge difference between a good mage and a bad one. You have to know when and where to use your cooldowns as if you dont your dps will be low. People complaining that arcane is too easy is stupid. If you sit there and spam one button as a mage you wont last long in a progressive guild. Also if you do that, you will be oom so fast, and even with mana gems and evocation you'll be oom a few minutes into the fight and wont be able to support even 2 stacks of arcane blast.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1...e=2367#Dreamer

1 button spam = top saurfang dps in the world.

All classes have to manage cooldowns to an extent.

On topic: No. This game is about balance. All classes should be nearly equal. i say nearly because I think great utility should come at a small cost.

[muto]

Yes, complex rotations should do more damage and simple face roll rotations such as that of mutilate rogues should do less damage, but it will never happen because the game is about "balance". And the sad things is, the easy specs get rewarded in PVP, ie., frost mages.

[Oerba Yun Fang]

Who would define what a "difficult" or "complex" spec is? They're both terms very relative to the player.

[Thaendra]

I tend to agree that all specs should be equal, HOWEVER..
they are not, and because of the fact that they are not of equal ease, there should be some way to notice a difference.
Some are significantly more complex to play, and there should be a reward for that other than "enjoying being complex". That same mentality could be used to say "why should this or that dungeon reward gear? Clearly the reward for doing it should be the simple fact that you did it."

The problem is in the relative nature of the classes. If the guy standing next to you presses 2 buttons and does more DPS than you do juggling 13 different buttons regularly, even though you might enjoy playing a more complex class or spec, other people can't benefit from you "enjoying" your class. Your raid doesn't get a +damage bonus because you "enjoy" your spec. That is the sad truth, and that is what encounters are based off of. You can't "happy" raid bosses or enemy players to death. Of course a good guild would let you play what you enjoy, but it would be nice if you could pick something you enjoy that was also useful.

Once all specs are of roughly equal difficulty to play, then I think it would be a good idea for their contribution to the raid to be equal. Right now though, there are some specs with extremely difficult rotations/etc that aren't really being "rewarded" like specs that utilize a significantly easier rotation.

[Deos]

Yes, more complex specs should have an edge over faceroll specs. What's the point in spending more efforts for less rewards then?? There has to be something other than bragging rights for playing a hard spec to justify all the extra pain.

Yes, arcane mage 1-2 button mashing disgusting ridicule of a spec DOES NOT DESERVE not only to blow the charts out like they do now, but even to compete with other specs >:\ No, "managing mana" does not make lol-arcane any sort of challenging, not to mention there are short fights exist where mana is never an issue but dps is the same reward for all the classes.

And no, specs should not be balanced with topmost players in mind, those that can master the depths of it, like shao-lin monks, with meditation and years of training, because in case of a really complex class it would make it unplayable for vast majority of player base. That's the tricky part about a complex class. Higher skill ceiling MUST be rewarded with higher DPS otherwise the entire class will not work completely.

It's just the way of the world.. of warcraft.. People asking for all across the board equal maximum -=theoretical=- DPS must be playing arcane mage or any other faceroll spec and live in denial. It wont happen. You guys shall get your nerfs eventually. And those classes that general majority cant master to the point of being competitive shall get buffed with topmost players pulling ahead of you. Dont like it? Pick a hard class/spec and try to master it, the choice is yours. OR ask blizzard to put some -=depth=- in your favorite spec, but for some weird reason i dont see arcane mages begging for it, they all jump in defense of their 1-button roflspec instead, making excuses and wild claims..

[zsun]

I believe the way to reward complex dps specs is NOT TO GIVE THEM MORE DAMAGE THAN SIMPLE DPS SPECS, but by other means.

Other means can include:

-easier resource management - more complex specs should be rewarded with having less issues with trivial things such as mana or other types of resource. Although there should still be restrictions taking place but they should be easier to manage than those simpler DPS specs. Arcane manges going quickly OOM illustrates my point.

-more utility, better buffs - good buffs such as 10% more sp, or 8% more spell damage, or 5% more haste to the raid should be rewarded to those more complex specs, making them more desired.

-better survivability/mobility - can move out of fires a lot quicker, self heals while dpsing etc etc...

[vian]

All speccs should deal the same dmg. It's all down to prefference whether or not you like it easy or hard.

[The Cat]

More complex rotations should have a slightly higher theoretical dps output. I'm not saying they should do more damage on actual parses. The more complex the rotation the harder it is to reach the theoretical top end. Literally impossible in some cases. Ultimately it should balance out to be about even in game and the odd person capitalizing on the higher theoretical dps would be more of an anomaly than anything.

[FrozenFlames]

No.
''I want my specc to be the hardest so I can do most damage, I'll handle the specc good anyway''.
Again, No.

[Frai]

there are so many differing factors on a boss encounter such as moving, fight mechanics ect that render a discussion like this completely obselete

[escobar]

I think there should be a slight edge in the maximum dps a player can reach for more difficult specs. It is only fair that since there is a greater room for failure and thus lower dps in classes such as spriests and feral druids that there theoretical dps should also be slightly higher if they are able to pull it off near perfectly.

TL,DR: Im tired of doing the same or being beat by arcane mages hitting 2-3 buttons and thinking they're good.

I recall blizz stating somewhere that for example going into wotlk bm was an easier spec to play than mm or sv so they should have slightly higher top dps since its harder to get the most out of those specs. They may have taken it too far seeing how bm wasnt even competing but a slight theoretical dps increase should be there. Why should someone spamming 2 buttons do the equivalent damage of someone keeping up 100% dot time on multiple spells clipping mind flay etc or managing debuffs

[Psykewne]

The thing is, straight up dps is not a real number when comparing different classes or even different specs.

There will always be benefits on a fight per fight basis that will allow a certain race or class to do better. For example, festergut, the melee never move, but the ranged consistently need to move for the spores and are also regularly immobilised by a mechanic of the encounter.

I think the emphasis should less be on gving classes inherent bonuses for being harder or easier, but allowing their unique differences offer them the potential to reap benefits based upon encounters. Whether it be to provide a buff to allow other more effective classes on that encounter to select a more optimal dps spec (think about the spec selection of mage and warlock for bringing replenishment vs the benefits of their other spec choices), whether it be a more mobile spec that while it does less standing still dps will allow for greater overall dps due to needing to move and having the skill set to manage that fact. And so on...

I wish i could be bothered to track down the quote but there was discussion that some rotations had become so complex that it meant they had to seriously consider not being able to put in more complex boss mechanics since it would be too high a demand for those specs to focus on rotation and boss skills. I certainly believe that blizzard has it right in wanting to have moderately interesting and challenging skill usage combined with being able to really stretch the player base with boss skills (i mean what's more fun, doing the same very complex rotation on each boss, or having to play differently on each boss due to challenging mechanics?)

also you suggest 10%... that is a ridiculous dps difference, remember that at the start of wotlk, hybrids were stated to have been given only a 5% dps tax for bringing more buffs etc...

The bigger issue (which i hope to see resolved in cata) is that dps only think about dps... support skills should be more important and those along with the handling of boss mechanics should separate the good and the bad players, ie. being able to 2 heal a 10 man boss rather than 3 heal because your dps all use their support skills to avoid/heal damage will give you a higher raid dps by adding another full time dpser to the mix, that is a true skill based dps boost without feeding anyone's epeen, yet the gain is greater than 10% (think 2 tanks, 3 healers, 5 dps normally, adding an extra dps is a 20% dps boost for the raid). Don't look for solo grandstanding in a team environment, wow is not a solo game, or at least not solo to the point at which you should be concerningg yourself with class balance.

[kemanorel]

My guild lead plays a mage as his main. At the moment, he is Fire since he says he refuses to play it until it is "fixed." In a 10 reg ICC run mostly alts or fresh recruits I actually beat his fire mage on festergut with my survival hunter. It was close, and he got 2 vile gas to my one, but the point remains that I beat a mage as a hunter spec that isn't supposed to be viable until 81. Don't complain that higher skill doesn't result in higher dps, because higher skill results in more damage done through maximizing fight mechanics, cooldowns, procs, using appropriate consumables et cetera. I am usually the person who is dropping the fish and then eating more specific stat food. I have run numbers on elixirs vs flasks as well. 4.0 drastically widened the gaps between inexperienced players, skilled players, and facerollers who could copy/paste forums. I have consistently performed better in sheer numbers as well as being better able to perform mechanics by playing my character in a way that suited me rather than in the "traditional" or "best" way. 3.3.5 I did better as survival than armor pen marksman. And had more fun. If my characters weren't able to be played in an enjoyable fashion while producing results, I'd reroll or quit. Just in case people doubt the hunter won in hunter vs. mage here is the log: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/0qmg9621ll0769wm/ and here is guild armory with both our characters: http://www.wowarmory.com/guild-info....rovised+Empire In the grand scheme of things we're lucky to be middle of the pack despite being upper echelon for our server for 10m content. But my point remains. I find ways to make my playstyle be fun, challenging, and productive. And it's working?