Blizz is taking Rated BGs from the BGers & giving them to Arena people

[Angry Archer]

I will state the case of how Rated BGs were stolen from BGers and is now being given to the Arena players. Following Ill give proof that this is the case.

This happened when it became clear that many many people liked that Rated BGs were being added and alot of old timers were reactivating their accounts for them. At this point Blizzard had what they saw as a problem because so many pvpers hate Arena that they were afraid the only ones doing Arena would be the diehard Arena fans.

Obviously this bothers the Devs because the main one in charge of PvP , Kalgan, is a huge advocate of Arena. But at same time they have to put in Rated bgs because so many people wanted access to top tier weapons via BGs because many prefer bgs over arena and felt they shouldnt be punished for it.

So what does Blizzard do? They get all the BGers excited about rateds and then proceed to work to bring back Isle of Que style world pv and add in another Wintergrasp. All things that the bulk of Pvpers prefer over Arena. So after everyone is excited and deciding to either stick around for Cat or reactivate? They start manipulating the Rateds to cater to Arena players. I give you proof

1. Battle for Gilneas: What should be a 40v40 BG is not. Its a 10 man which is just ridiculous. It should have been at least 15.

2. Twin Peaks: What should be a 15v15 BG is not. Its a 10 man. Its WSG rehashed and perhaps even made into a more of a stricter strat ala arena.

Let me explain. The only oddball in the bunch below is WSG as it should be.
WSG-10 man
AB -15 man
EOTS-15 man
SotA- 15 man
AV- 40 man
IoC- 40 man

Heres how this caters to Arena players. 10 man BGs are much more structered and require strict comps unlike 15 where you are more flexible and flexible doesnt mean lame it means it opens the bg to more randomness. Which is in fact HARDER to deal with than strict comps. 10 man BGs are much much more like Arena than 15s or 40s. Its basically 2 arena teams. Besides 15 would have made it easier for guilds to constantly run BGs most weeks.

3. No Consumables or Engineering items. WTF. I mean really. Why the hell would you do that unless you are catering to the Arena crowd.

4. Removing 25 man rateds. Again this caters to the Arena crowd. 2 less weeks of no ten man arena style bgs. I dont know how many of you have ever been in premade AVs squaring off but its the best BGing you will ever encounter. Sadly its pretty rare the past couple years.

Arena people hate randomness. They hate chaos. They hate anything other than strict comps with strict movements. Its a twitch game for them. They dont want to think they only want to react. In Arena for every Action there is a set reaction. Its garbage. In BGs you cant predict whats going to happen. Their is no set strat because you never know what you are going to face. Thats what makes BGs so much better than Arenas. Id say that Blizzard just doesnt get that but I dont actually believe that. I think they know exactly what they are doing. They are just trying to leech off the BGers by converting the BGs to cater to them.


Honestly I could probably stomach the 10 mans even though it really pisses me off that they manipulated the BG people like that but the consumables and engineering removal is too much. I am honestly not buying Cat for either one of my accounts until that is removed and my accounts will be canceled. I have no motivation to play nor have i for very long time but i kept my accounts active for no good reason. I was thinking of quitting wow for good until i heard about rateds.

Kalgan/Blizz...Get your Arena crap the f*** out of my BGs. Stop manipulating WoWs pvp landscape to cater to you personally, it was bad enough that you ruined UO pvp. Leave the BGs alone. Leave it as anything goes. Put the 2 new bgs to 15 per side. Then go sit with a few of your buddies and kill each other over and over in Arena.


BG Fans, Strike and Petition now or pay later. Tell Blizzard we dont want their Arena crap in our BGs. Demand the new BGs go to 15 man to Break the Arena mold. WSG should remain a niche bg like the 40s.

Some of you might disagree with me on this but I am telling you these moves are done ENTIRELY with Arena people in mind. Screw that. They already have Arenas.

[Shokzman]

I totally agree.
I HATE ARENA!
I HATE 10 v 10 BGS
I LIKE using engi items.

BG is BG and ARENA is ARENA! Rated Bgs should be RATED BGs and not a 10 v 10 arena match.

[Rystastic]

Being punished for being a small guild is cool amirite?

But no, making so that a small (10-15) player guild could actually participate every week is totally catering to those 3v3 teams.

[BagOfChips]

Thinking consumables being usable in pvp is stupid doesn't make you an arena-er, just saying.

[haxartus]

As I said many months before, the so called "BG players" are going to hate the rated BGs because of the skill involved. Threads like that are just proving my point.

[waxen]

if they want to remove engi good from being used they should limit all prof buffs. Why should just one prof suffer? they can just remove/disable(wile in r-bgs) the extra stats form jc gems, the "haste trinket" for herbalists, extra bs sockets, tailoring cloak weaves, etc, etc...

[NineSpine]

if they want to remove engi good from being used they should limit all prof buffs. Why should just one prof suffer? they can just remove/disable(wile in r-bgs) the extra stats form jc gems, the "haste trinket" for herbalists, extra bs sockets, tailoring cloak weaves, etc, etc...

Engineering and alchemy have bonuses which AREN'T banned that make them equivalent to the other professions, so your point is moot. Favoring people who have the time to farm mats for consumable items makes for a really, really lame game. If you allow it, a team where everyone is an engy/alchemist and has plenty of mats will have a MASSIVE natural advantage over any other team. That's not fun. It's stupid. It's bad design. In fact, it's one of the biggest game design mistakes you can make in a competitive game.

---------- Post added 2010-11-13 at 02:16 AM ----------

This is the feature I am most excited about because I, like you, dislike arena but love BGs and have always wanted to play them competitively.

That said, your criticisms are the epitome of kneejerk, infantile nonsense. Consumables drastically dis-balance competition. The 25v25 bracket was going to be a disaster. Very few guilds would be able to compete those weeks. Most guilds would skip that week. Disallowing the vast majority of guilds from using a core feature every third week is poor design.

I don't think you understand how the rotation of brackets is going to work. It's going to be 10v10 one week, then 15v15 the next week, repeat. It doesn't cycle through every battleground, doing the 10s and then the 15s; It alternates every week.

[lawlpoo]

I will state the case of how Rated BGs were stolen from BGers and is now being given to the Arena players. Following Ill give proof that this is the case.

This happened when it became clear that many many people liked that Rated BGs were being added and alot of old timers were reactivating their accounts for them. At this point Blizzard had what they saw as a problem because so many pvpers hate Arena that they were afraid the only ones doing Arena would be the diehard Arena fans.

Obviously this bothers the Devs because the main one in charge of PvP , Kalgan, is a huge advocate of Arena. But at same time they have to put in Rated bgs because so many people wanted access to top tier weapons via BGs because many prefer bgs over arena and felt they shouldnt be punished for it.

So what does Blizzard do? They get all the BGers excited about rateds and then proceed to work to bring back Isle of Que style world pv and add in another Wintergrasp. All things that the bulk of Pvpers prefer over Arena. So after everyone is excited and deciding to either stick around for Cat or reactivate? They start manipulating the Rateds to cater to Arena players. I give you proof

1. Battle for Gilneas: What should be a 40v40 BG is not. Its a 10 man which is just ridiculous. It should have been at least 15.

2. Twin Peaks: What should be a 15v15 BG is not. Its a 10 man. Its WSG rehashed and perhaps even made into a more of a stricter strat ala arena.

Let me explain. The only oddball in the bunch below is WSG as it should be.
WSG-10 man
AB -15 man
EOTS-15 man
SotA- 15 man
AV- 40 man
IoC- 40 man

Heres how this caters to Arena players. 10 man BGs are much more structered and require strict comps unlike 15 where you are more flexible and flexible doesnt mean lame it means it opens the bg to more randomness. Which is in fact HARDER to deal with than strict comps. 10 man BGs are much much more like Arena than 15s or 40s. Its basically 2 arena teams. Besides 15 would have made it easier for guilds to constantly run BGs most weeks.

3. No Consumables or Engineering items. WTF. I mean really. Why the hell would you do that unless you are catering to the Arena crowd.

4. Removing 25 man rateds. Again this caters to the Arena crowd. 2 less weeks of no ten man arena style bgs. I dont know how many of you have ever been in premade AVs squaring off but its the best BGing you will ever encounter. Sadly its pretty rare the past couple years.

Arena people hate randomness. They hate chaos. They hate anything other than strict comps with strict movements. Its a twitch game for them. They dont want to think they only want to react. In Arena for every Action there is a set reaction. Its garbage. In BGs you cant predict whats going to happen. Their is no set strat because you never know what you are going to face. Thats what makes BGs so much better than Arenas. Id say that Blizzard just doesnt get that but I dont actually believe that. I think they know exactly what they are doing. They are just trying to leech off the BGers by converting the BGs to cater to them.


Honestly I could probably stomach the 10 mans even though it really pisses me off that they manipulated the BG people like that but the consumables and engineering removal is too much. I am honestly not buying Cat for either one of my accounts until that is removed and my accounts will be canceled. I have no motivation to play nor have i for very long time but i kept my accounts active for no good reason. I was thinking of quitting wow for good until i heard about rateds.

Kalgan/Blizz...Get your Arena crap the f*** out of my BGs. Stop manipulating WoWs pvp landscape to cater to you personally, it was bad enough that you ruined UO pvp. Leave the BGs alone. Leave it as anything goes. Put the 2 new bgs to 15 per side. Then go sit with a few of your buddies and kill each other over and over in Arena.


BG Fans, Strike and Petition now or pay later. Tell Blizzard we dont want their Arena crap in our BGs. Demand the new BGs go to 15 man to Break the Arena mold. WSG should remain a niche bg like the 40s.

Some of you might disagree with me on this but I am telling you these moves are done ENTIRELY with Arena people in mind. Screw that. They already have Arenas.

Good. Arena players know how to pvp and know their class better then the people who play bgs.

All my arena partners are saying how they aren't going to like rated bg's but are still going to play them.

A lot of work goes in to being good at arena and most kids who don't like doing arena or the ones who are just bad at them don't understand why they are losing but say that class is OP. I've tried to carry my friend they just say this is dumb their is nothing I can do. Which is just stupid. How do other healers do so?

Going 20-0 in a battleground doesn't take skill. Even though you may think you're awesome for doing so.


If you aren't good at arena you probably aren't going to be good at rated bgs. End of story.

Figure out what focus frames are. Figure out what macros are. Figure out how to put yourself in a good position. Figure out how not to tunnel vision. Be able to look at your buffs and teammates buffs while still seeing who you're casting on. Also while still being in good position. If you're a clothing its probably not the a good idea to run in two melee then say how they're "OP"

IF YOU CAN'T COMPETE IN ARENAS YOU AREN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE IN RATED BGS!! LEARN TO PLAY!!!

I use to be one of those kids who got upset when I lost. Then I asked someone what I was doing wrong. I went from being an 1800 player to a Glad.

---------- Post added 2010-11-12 at 09:34 PM ----------

Also the reason their isn't 40 vs 40 is because you will have to get that many people on the team. Then make sure they are on an able to play at least once a week. People have lives. Have you ever tried to do 5s? So hard to make sure everyone's schedule fits.

Also when I do bgs with my friends we have strats to win just like arena. Their will be set comps just like arena. When something becomes competitive people start trying to figure out what works the best. Unlike reg bgs because honestly no one cares... I do them to farm honor to get my offsets. Then I stop for the season because its not competitive its usually me getting paired up with a bunch of kids who should be wearing helmets... which makes it impossible to win.

[haxartus]

Good. Arena players know how to pvp and know their class better then the people who play bgs.

Exactly.
The people that hate Arena hate it because of it's competitive side and it's focus on the personal skill. They like to be carried by better players, but in the Arena if they do something wrong, their team loses and it's their fault.
The people that hate the Arenas will hate the rated BGs, and the people that were good in Arena will dominate the rated BGs. The main reason is that the skills that the Arena players have will be required in the rated BGs too, and the normal BG players just don't have them.

[Angry Archer]

Most 5s teams have extra players . 10 man BGs is essentially a full 5s arena team with everyone in the same game

Lets get some misconceptions out of the way real fast.

1. I like WSG actually but its much more structered than the other bgs. Its more 'Arenalike'. Its a nice change of pace but thats all it should be, a change of pace, not the norm

2. I did arena in TBC and I only did it for the gear. Other than that I hated it.

3. I am not some casual BGer. I ran in premades very very heavily before WOTLK and before premades were nerfed around S4. The best BGs werent premades vs pugs. It was premades vs premades. I LOVED the competition.

4. I PREFER smaller guilds. But you still will need a decent sized guild for the most part to run rateds. There is no way around it. Anyone thinking they will just have 10-15 people small guild and do well is living a pipe dream. Aint happening.

5. I took engineering long before most of you were probably even playing. Who here can even tell me what the description of engineering used to be? Hint it basically called it the pvp profession. Anyone against consumables or engineering being in rateds is just scared to face the unknown and hates surprises that tend to blow up in their face. There is the Arena for you, its that way ->

6. Arena people will not do nearly as well in 15s as they think they will. Especially if they do it right and allow anything goes as it should be. Will be funny watching the Arena people qq when they dont understand how to handle some screwball specs and situations. Cant wait to see the crying over heals in large skirmishes.

You know what really is pathetic? Is the Arena people CALLING for these changes to adapt the BGs to arena like conditions when they already have what they want in Arenas themselves. Its called failure to adapt and...fear. Stop being pussies. Either do the Rateds like normal BGs are or dont do them at all. Nobody is forcing you to do BGs. You have Arenas with the same rewards.


Structure has no real place in battlegrounds other than some basics. It should be pure chaos other than that.

Arenas are a boxing match with rules and fairly predictable results.
Battlegrounds are War where there are no rules. You do whatever it takes to win.

Kalgan has been screwing up pvp for a long time and in two different games. It needs to stop.

[NineSpine]

Most 5s teams have extra players . 10 man BGs is essentially a full 5s arena team with everyone in the same game

Lets get some misconceptions out of the way real fast.

1. I like WSG actually but its much more structered than the other bgs. Its more 'Arenalike'. Its a nice change of pace but thats all it should be, a change of pace, not the norm

2. I did arena in TBC and I only did it for the gear. Other than that I hated it.

3. I am not some casual BGer. I ran in premades very very heavily before WOTLK and before premades were nerfed around S4. The best BGs werent premades vs pugs. It was premades vs premades. I LOVED the competition.

4. I PREFER smaller guilds. But you still will need a decent sized guild for the most part to run rateds. There is no way around it. Anyone thinking they will just have 10-15 people small guild and do well is living a pipe dream. Aint happening.

5. I took engineering long before most of you were probably even playing. Who here can even tell me what the description of engineering used to be? Hint it basically called it the pvp profession. Anyone against consumables or engineering being in rateds is just scared to face the unknown and hates surprises that tend to blow up in their face. There is the Arena for you, its that way ->

6. Arena people will not do nearly as well in 15s as they think they will. Especially if they do it right and allow anything goes as it should be. Will be funny watching the Arena people qq when they dont understand how to handle some screwball specs and situations. Cant wait to see the crying over heals in large skirmishes.

You know what really is pathetic? Is the Arena people CALLING for these changes to adapt the BGs to arena like conditions when they already have what they want in Arenas themselves. Its called failure to adapt and...fear. Stop being pussies. Either do the Rateds like normal BGs are or dont do them at all. Nobody is forcing you to do BGs. You have Arenas with the same rewards.


Structure has no real place in battlegrounds other than some basics. It should be pure chaos other than that.

Arenas are a boxing match with rules and fairly predictable results.
Battlegrounds are War where there are no rules. You do whatever it takes to win.

Kalgan has been screwing up pvp for a long time and in two different games. It needs to stop.

Look, you are alone in wanting rated BGs to be "pure chaos" with things randomly "blowing up". Nobody else wants that. You are alone. Deal with it. People want rated BGs because they like large scale strategic combat, as opposed to death matches (arena). Just because you have some fetish for "chaos" does not mean anyone else does.

You act like consumables and engineering items are secrets that people don't know. If they allowed them, do you know what would happen? In two weeks, everyone would know the most valuable consumable and engineering items and all of the top teams would switch to using those and it would be just as predictable as without them, only the teams without them would be at a severe disadvantage.

In all my years of reading forums, I've never seen someone so patently oblivious to what is good game design, and so arrogantly convinced that their own bizarre, niche desires are what everyone else wants.

"Arenas are a boxing match with rules and fairly predictable results.
Battlegrounds are War where there are no rules. You do whatever it takes to win."

No, Arenas are deathmatches; Battlegrounds are objective based. That's the only difference.

Stop crying that you can't min/max consumables and roflstomp people like you used to versus crappy premade AV pugs. Boohoo, you have to learn how to be decent at the game in order to get anywhere, poor you.

[Yooya]

As I said many months before, the so called "BG players" are going to hate the rated BGs because of the skill involved. Threads like that are just proving my point.

I agree with this. As far as I can tell strict Battleground players seem to thrive in an unstructured environment. Somewhere they can standout amongst the masses. The second you add structure to Battlegrounds they don't stand out as much, or at all, with the influx of new -better- players.

Personally I just think its one of those I don't want to be on the 'cool' train things. Well don't worry regular Battleground are still there go have fun.

This being said, wow as a competitive game is fairly lackluster all around. Starcraft 2 is totally where it is at.

[Angry Archer]

You guys keep telling yourselves that. You are the ones if for a surprise

[lawlpoo]

You guys keep telling yourselves that. You are the ones if for a surprise

You can barely talk. I doubt you are even 1800. When people are looking for people to do Rated bgs with I bet they chose someone who has a higher arena rating because they know their class. Unlike someone like you, probably just pop cooldowns and hopes to win. Whats your characters name ill tell you other reasons you should go get your helmet.

[Swizzle]

Engineering and alchemy have bonuses which AREN'T banned that make them equivalent to the other professions, so your point is moot.

Which? Because there is only one: glove enchants which on their own are weaker than all other profession buffs (coming out to ~74 passive haste when other profs give 80 bonus rating, at level 85).

Also the farming argument is pretty moot since you have to do it for PvE, and I don't see much being restricted there.

---------- Post added 2010-11-13 at 04:53 AM ----------

You can barely talk. I doubt you are even 1800. When people are looking for people to do Rated bgs with I bet they chose someone who has a higher arena rating because they know their class. Unlike someone like you, probably just pop cooldowns and hopes to win. Whats your characters name ill tell you other reasons you should go get your helmet.

Also a terrible argument. Personal attacks don't make you right or them wrong, it just makes you look 12.

[Yooya]

Which? Because there is only one: glove enchants which on their own are weaker than all other profession buffs (coming out to ~74 passive haste when other profs give 80 bonus rating, at level 85).

Engineering is supposed to have cool things, and they do, or at least I think so. The problem is these cool things have such functionality that if they were allowed it would be the only way to go. The rest of the professions would be hardly worth it. If they make Engineering items as unexciting, or as simple, as a +60 stat increase then sure bring them into Battlegrounds.

One disallowed professions rather then one overpowered profession sounds like fair trade to me.

[Swizzle]

Engineering is supposed to have cool things, and they do, or at least I think so. The problem is these cool things have such functionality that if they were allowed it would be the only way to go. The rest of the professions would be hardly worth it. If they make Engineering items as unexciting, or as simple, as a +60 stat increase then sure bring them into Battlegrounds.

One disallowed professions rather then one overpowered profession sounds like fair trade to me.

One disallowed? Sweet, thank god I've been an engineer for 4 years to have someone tell me it's okay that I can't use it at all. Thanks for that, you made my day.

[Yooya]

One disallowed? Sweet, thank god I've been an engineer for 4 years to have someone tell me it's okay that I can't use it at all. Thanks for that, you made my day.

Consider the alternative. I'm all for making your profession boring and cookie cutter.

[Lotharion]

Wow.

Speculation = Proof, right?

No. This is a massive strawman and complaint argument.

[Minky]

as i said many months before, the so called "bg players" are going to hate the rated bgs because of the skill involved. Threads like that are just proving my point.

qft.