PVE Frost mage for Cata

[Deleted]

I'd love to see you not OOM yourself on the 8 minute fights using molten. Really. I'd love to see you do it. Mage+all mana conservation talents gets you just slightly over 9 minutes.

I said 33.34% raid buffed. That includes the 5% buff and 5% debuff.

As for the whole hit thing. Rating scaling have screwed us. It's 102 hit rating for 1% hit. Lhivera has mathed out our DPS gains for hit and int at 100 int is equal to 147 hit. DPS increase for 100 points of int is 1.39%, 100 points of hit is 0.94%. The break point on this is when you hit 10200 SP, where hit begins to overtake int again.

Do not lecture me on frost PVE.

Well okay, i take back my bad attitude towards you. Though i'd like to see proof of that actually beeing correct. Just because you say "Lhivera" says so, doesnt give me much. Got a link?

---------- Post added 2010-11-21 at 09:57 PM ----------

I'd argue you get 10% crit from raid buffs and 5% from your molten armour plus glyph.

The exact glyph setup I am not 100% on at the moment - essentially you got 4 viable ones: FFB, Deep Freeze, Frostbolt and Molten Armour. (I will most likely leave out frostbolt as it's the only one that doesn't scale with mastery)

I don't understand a word of what you are arguing about, more than that 5% base crit from Molten armor is wrong, it's 3% unglyphed.

Well from beta test raiding, the spell with most dmg done is still frostbolt so i wouldn't really remove that glyph. I myself use Deep Freeze, frostbolt and ice lance since those dominate my DPS spreadsheet.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

On mana usage: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t104774-...9/#post1786582

On stat values: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...Id=27607452929 Post 15. Although the haste is out of date, this was during the short time haste shortened DF's cooldown. The rest are solid though.

On hit/int break point: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t106009-...2/#post1793867 Meta discussion is out of date and re-done a couple posts down.

Edit: Hm. Can't find the post on the 9 minute mark. I'll take my statement back about OOMing until I can be sure it's under the right circumstances, despite Tyrian's numbers. I'd still prefer to not think about mana, as I always have as frost, but we'll see.

Edit 2: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t104774-...8/#post1782819 but no mention of armour. Given the numbers above, this could be with molten. My own experience with molten on the beta has been almost entirely impossible to run for any sane length of time. I may have been missing a buff that might make all the difference, but as of current I'm going to stick with mage for frost. It seems fairly easy to soft cap crit by T11.

[Toriankel]

Kunî, what do you think of piercing chill vs permafrost ? I would go 2/2 PC and 1/3 PF, but my fellow mage in my guild said that PF was better, your thoughts ?

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Piercing chill gives you added single target damage in cleave situations. You gain extra chances for both fingers and brain freeze anytime there's adds around, and up until the last beta patch, it was applying to single targets as well. Permafrost is the mortal strike debuff, slower chills, and pet healing.

The elemental already has 90% AOE avoidance. Even shadow cutters from Halion barely scratch it. From a PVE standpoint, I'd do 2/2 piercing and 1/3 permafrost.

[Aunor]

Does the first part of mastery works on bosses? ( All your spells does increased dmg on frozen targets ) and when u frostnowa the boss or coc or elemental freeze does it get frozen ? ( i know u cant deep freeze him ) ?

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Frostburn works with fingers of frost on bosses. It'll allow you to gain frozen status against bosses since they can't be frozen. Ice lance and frostfire bolt with brain freeze will both benefit from this. Deep freeze benefits from fingers, and does a ton of damage to bosses, but as of current it doesn't benefit from mastery.

[Aunor]

Frostburn works with fingers of frost on bosses. It'll allow you to gain frozen status against bosses since they can't be frozen. Ice lance and frostfire bolt with brain freeze will both benefit from this. Deep freeze benefits from fingers, and does a ton of damage to bosses, but as of current it doesn't benefit from mastery.

Thanks a bunch mate for explanation

[Deleted]

For 85 raiding:
int to 10200 SP > hit to cap > more int > crit to 33.34% raid buffed > mastery > more crit > haste

10200 SP - Sewiouswy?

[Kuni Zyrekai]

10200 SP - Sewiouswy?

It's just the point where hit overtakes int at a 1:1 value. Hit cap is still a very valuable cap to hit. But instead of hit being worth like 2-3 SP like now, since hit requires so much itemization on any given item, int is better point for point until that value.

[sparks]

well since they just nerfed proc changes and a few other things.
Looks like the low dps tree is lower than before.

of course there is still time to nerf the other trees to be lower but I kinda doubt it.

[Toriankel]

well since they just nerfed proc changes and a few other things.
Looks like the low dps tree is lower than before.

of course there is still time to nerf the other trees to be lower but I kinda doubt it.

Seriously, our mastery was already dependent on a 30% proc chance, now it's on a 20% proc chance ? It's going to be completly useless to get mastery in frost at that rate : compared to aditionnal dot dammage in fire, this mastery is uter shit.

I Speak In Terms Of Pve Only

[Deleted]

I don't understand a word of what you are arguing about, more than that 5% base crit from Molten armor is wrong, it's 3% unglyphed.

Well from beta test raiding, the spell with most dmg done is still frostbolt so i wouldn't really remove that glyph. I myself use Deep Freeze, frostbolt and ice lance since those dominate my DPS spreadsheet.

I was saying that, people said the crit softcap was 23.3% due to 10% from raid buffs, but if you factor in 5% from glyphed molten armour (or 3% without glyph ofc) then the cap is actually 18.3% right?

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Seriously, our mastery was already dependent on a 30% proc chance, now it's on a 20% proc chance ? It's going to be completly useless to get mastery in frost at that rate : compared to aditionnal dot dammage in fire, this mastery is uter shit.

I Speak In Terms Of Pve Only

Yes, 20% chance for fingers. Also the ability to proc two stacks of it on demand every 25 seconds which you should DF+lance off of, frostfire orb every minute for 15 chances at FoF while you cast. It's not that bad. It's been this way on beta a while now.

After the crit soft cap, crit is terrible. Haste only affects frostbolt which is already stupidly quick and not worth that much to us anymore. That leaves you with mastery, which works on ~60% of your overall damage. None of these stats are good like haste pre-4.0 to arcane, but they're decent. Mastery is the strongest of the three if soft crit capped.

[DeathDefier]

So http://www.magegraf.com/expansion/in...?hash=e4b4d04f is calculating Frost dps to be the highest sustained at T11 gear levels. I'm only going to assume Frost will be the best early on as well. This is making me very happy, but also sad because 17k is pretty low compared to my moonkin friend is coming up with 20k in similar gear on his spreadsheet. As long as we aren't completely left in the dust I'm ok with it though honestly.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

So http://www.magegraf.com/expansion/in...?hash=e4b4d04f is calculating Frost dps to be the highest sustained at T11 gear levels. I'm only going to assume Frost will be the best early on as well. This is making me very happy, but also sad because 17k is pretty low compared to my moonkin friend is coming up with 20k in similar gear on his spreadsheet. As long as we aren't completely left in the dust I'm ok with it though honestly.

Yeah. The only reason frost can sustain the DPS is because arcane is tuned for 100% damage burns and say 60% conserve phases, instead of 120%/80% or some such thing that should work out to 100% average. Fire's mana issues are keeping it down, especially with how low crit rates are. That said, we're hurting as a class. Expect damage buffs in the first few patches after Cata, when they have a bunch of people posting log parses showing where we are, because they can't leave us where we are.

[Aragen]

Yeah. The only reason frost can sustain the DPS is because arcane is tuned for 100% damage burns and say 60% conserve phases, instead of 120%/80% or some such thing that should work out to 100% average. Fire's mana issues are keeping it down, especially with how low crit rates are. That said, we're hurting as a class. Expect damage buffs in the first few patches after Cata, when they have a bunch of people posting log parses showing where we are, because they can't leave us where we are.

I am planing on rolling a Worgen Mage December 7th and was hoping to dual spec PvE Frost and Fire (switch between them as I get bored with one or the other and I hate arcane with a passion). Mages are in such peril right now due to the massive QQ storm from the PvPers over getting steamrolled by Mages (any spec). It is going to be really hard to get PvP/PvE balance for Mages at this point I just hope Blizzard can figure it out.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

I am planing on rolling a Worgen Mage December 7th and was hoping to dual spec PvE Frost and Fire (switch between them as I get bored with one or the other and I hate arcane with a passion). Mages are in such peril right now due to the massive QQ storm from the PvPers over getting steamrolled by Mages (any spec). It is going to be really hard to get PvP/PvE balance for Mages at this point I just hope Blizzard can figure it out.

A big part of it was the only PVP gear was the blue crafted stuff on beta, or people trying to PVP in raid gear and getting whooped. From a frost standpoint, if Blizz wants to not touch current PVP balance all they have to do is raise DF damage or make a mechanic in which if it deals damage, the CD is lowered.

For fire, scorch got nerfed multiple times because of how powerful it was to cast while running and keep up a full rotation by swapping fireball with scorch. I could see Blizz put say a stacking buff on how long you stand still that will allow you to cast a number of scorches while moving, instead of just baking the mechanic into molten armour.

Arcane.... Well if you let an arcane mage cast and stack arcane blast, you're a bloody moron and deserve to die. Every class has some way to break that stacking buff, by spell lockouts, silence, fear, or forced player movement.

Realistically they can't lower our general damage because we're already near the bottom of the DPS stack. Arcane and frost's active mastery is too powerful to change for PVP without massive crying, as are the passive spec bonuses since they're just straight +damage. So much for Blizz's easy tuning knobs. Unless you give arcane and fire a split PVP/PVE ability like DF, the only way we can go is up at this point, or everyone else down.

[Zanardam]

Did early frost is really useful in raiding ?

I heard is only good for pvp and low lvling..is this true?

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Did early frost is really useful in raiding ?

I heard is only good for pvp and low lvling..is this true?

It's useful in raiding now. It lowers the GCD to 0.8, allowing you to shatter off of it even at high levels of haste. It's worth just about 2% DPS for both points.

[Zanardam]

It's useful in raiding now. It lowers the GCD to 0.8, allowing you to shatter off of it even at high levels of haste. It's worth just about 2% DPS for both points.

Thx for your answer good sir.