Arcane: Simply NOT fun

[Hexxidecimal]

First things first I am not bitching about our effectiveness, god knows we do ridiculous Damage at the moment and are Gods in PvP if played right.

What I am bitching about is the fact that Arcane isn't fun to play. Just being good at DPS isn't really enough for me. Big numbers are fun sure, for a bit. But Pushing AM or AB just feels like a damn chore now. I understand they want us to manage our mana, and I know for a fact that it will be vitally important to do so in Cata (though at this rate frost is actually the best PvE and PvP spec on beta) but it isn't FUN to push AM. It isn't interesting in anyway shape or form to occasionally hit 2 instead of three, ESPECIALLY when 2 does crap damage. I would gladly take a hit to AB to make my missiles hit harder again.

The need for self reliant damage reduction is very real in beta and frost has great options for that. So it becomes a solid balancing game around throwing up Ice Barrier or continuing to DPS. In addition frost gives you loads of options to maximize your DPS. Making sure you are on top of your FoF procs, throwing those ice lances at the right time, using deep freeze when ever you possibly can, even occasionally using your pets frost nova to give you some more damage on adds and trash.

Sure Arcane has Mana Shield but that is mana you simply CAN NOT loose as arcane. Your options are overly simple. AB or AM, with an occasional Arcane barrage on the move, that is IT. There are no other methods you can use to help give you a bit more damage (specifically I mean bread and butter type abilities and not cooldowns), or decision to be made using a GCD to help you survive vs taking advantage. That isn't to say that MAGES don't have survivability options in general but that frost simply has everything an arcane mage would have and then some. Not to mention a mechanic that due to it being reactionary makes it more interesting on a moment to moment basis.

Arcane missiles are not much more than uninteresting, un-exciting necessity and it's really your only other MEANINGFUL option. Sure you could Barrage but you won't unless you have to move.

[Plep]

Mana shield is definitely worth using in PvP. By using glyphed mage armor and mana shield, mage armor effectively behaves like a decent sized HoT except you take damage to your blue bar and heal it back up rather than your green one. You can afford to lose some mana by using mana shield and there are other benefits to it. With Incanter's Absorption you are are buffed when you are hit, and then when the mana shield is consumed you get a nice auto-knockback.

The sheep-stun talent provides an interesting mechanic too. You can sheep someone, build up arcane blast stacks on another target, and then switch back to the helpless sheep and own him with a 4-stacked huge hit and then another huge hit while he's stunned.

As for PvE, it's balanced at level 85, not 80. It will be much more dynamic and intense to play when you have to watch your mana bar like a hawk and be very careful to plan your regen events and your burn phases as well as having to know intuitively how far you can push your mana bar without overdoing it. I think this aspect will make arcane more difficult to play than fire and frost, and those "LOL arcane is one button" idiots couldn't be more wrong about their perception of the difficulty.

[Shamslam]

Ward is survivability and a very nice damage booster. Just sayin'

Also, with the patch notes, I'm wondering if AB and AM don't become more used since AB got nerfed and they both got buffed. I will agree it's not very fun, but then again, it hasn't been anything other than AB spam for years now.

Honestly, I feel like Arcane is *design wise* one of the most difficult specs for any class. Every other class has a set rotation/priority system and many (i.e. ele sham) have 0 worries about running out of mana. As arcane, you are forced to think ahead while in a fight. Should I go for endless AB spam here or play really safe with AB2AM so I have high mana for this burn phase? Should I evo right now or wait for another couple ABs? I can see there being a very, very large gap between good and great Arcane Mages in Cata, something that can't be said for many classes/specs. Even in WotLK, I have fights where I fuck up and use CDs at the wrong time or evo/gem at too soon/late and will end up a couple thousand DPS under what I usually pull.

[Cyndane]

Win! Agree completely. Hit the nail on the head. I concur. *insert other agreeing statements here*

[Xadion]

As for PvE, it's balanced at level 85, not 80. It will be much more dynamic and intense to play when you have to watch your mana bar like a hawk and be very careful to plan your regen events and your burn phases as well as having to know intuitively how far you can push your mana bar without overdoing it. I think this aspect will make arcane more difficult to play than fire and frost, and those "LOL arcane is one button" idiots couldn't be more wrong about their perception of the difficulty.

This exactly. I have posted it a million times too.
To "the majority" - Please for the love of all that is sane, read what Plep wrote and try to understand it!

[Shamslam]

Heck I think arcane may well end up being too difficult to play at 85. It can give great results if all goes well but last I checked if something happens and you screw your first burn you will likely struggle to compete for the rest of the fight. Arcane will penalize mistakes badly and fights with random targeting will be brutal if they screw your evocates.

This too. Even on simple fights like Toravon, if you screw up and evo with orbs up or when he casts his AoE (without mana shield/ward up) you will lose precious mana from losing channeling time. People like to spout off "lawls faceroll" but on fights that go for 5+ minutes, a great arcane mage will have to be constantly thinking his next move to avoid falling behind.

[Micke]

Something I posted in another thread a while ago: (pls note this is at 85)


Arcane is only about 2 things
1. spending as little mana as possible
2. spending as much mana as possible

During the 1. phase it doesnt really matter what you cast as long as you are above 90% mana but below 100%, e.g stacking up to 3 stacks a few times, and making up for it with a few 1 stacks other times (you can do 1 stacks with abarr ready after an AM) or a strict 2 ab stacks the entire way or simply being lucky with AM procs, aslong as you keep within the mana thresholds it works out to the same roughly as it is the same amount of mana spent.

During the 2. phase RNG will have a tremendous effect (crit or no crit) but mainly its just about burning down to 33% ish with AP/mana gem and evoing back up again and start 1. phase

mobility:
As for mobile dps, there will be times when you need to do high dps while being on the run at the same time, and that is something arcane is incapable of with just abarr

aoe:
Unless you always stand right next to the mobs that is going to be aoed, its always going to be a dps loss getting there to start AEing, not to mention getting back aswell. Burning blink for this wastes not only mana and a gcd, but you burn your main survival tool (not counting a 5 min iceblock) aswell. As for the threat reduction, if your guild is good, that wont be a huge bonus if you have good tanks, misdirects/tricks etc, also most of the times you'll be able to dps other things while waiting for the threat to build up, but you also have things like mirror images and ring of frost to control loose adds


Arcane is a functioning spec, but there is nothing but disadvantages when you compare it to fire/frost, arcane does not have a special perk that makes it better at a certain something, fire has cauterize, mobile dps and aoe, frost has aoe slow, stable dps and controllable burst (IV, DF, ffo and cold snap). You might say arcane has controllable burst? (lets say you have to burn this add down real quick) only if your mana is high and your cds are up, if they arent you'll be dropping so hard on overall dmg done later in the fight if you mismanage your mana that way, you'll either run oom or your evo wont bring you up to 100% meaning your next 1. phase will be lower dmg, and you likely wont regain enough mana through efficent rotation/raid mana regens to bring it up above 90% meaning the next burn phase will do lower dmg and go on for shorter time. If you fuck up/mismanage/is forced to burn mana any single time it will be an evil circle dragging you down throughout the fight.

[Blitzkrieg Says]

It's only "faceroll" right now because we have almost limitless mana. There are no consequences for mistakes. At 85 that will change, a good Arcane mage will annhilate a mediocre on on a meter. And an exception Arcane mage will annhilate a good one.

[Velyndina]

Real mages play fire. Its much more fun IMO and it does very good dps if you know how to play. I pulled of 16.2k on Festergut 10 while the other mage (arcane) was doing ~14k

98% of his dps was Arcane Blast, the other 2% was his trinket Reign of the Dead.

Arcane is boring atm, just wait til 85 since that is what everything is balanced around.

[Imnick]

opinion opinion opinion
opinion opinion
opinion opinion opinion
opinion

I mean I don't like Arcane that much either, but it's not your job to tell people what they do and do not enjoy

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Arcane's deal is mana management and nothing more. If you don't enjoy thinking ahead a bit in exchange for a simple spell system, then it's not the spec for you. There's a fair bit of depth to the spec, but it comes not from how many buttons you push, but learning how your regen interacts with your mana bar and how to manipulate that into more arcane blasts while maintaining mana adept at a high level. A lot of people won't be able to appreciate the spec for what it is, but many others will, and they'll play it.

[Spectral]

So, Arcane is not fun to you because you don't enjoy the playstyle. Never fear, Mages have too other DPS specs, and if those don't suit you, there's roughly 20 other DPS specs in the game you could play. Why not go with one of those options rather than demand that a spec that other people enjoy be remodeled to suit your tastes? I like Fire... so I play it.

[HeatM1ser]

I agree that the arcane mages rotation is boring, but its pretty fun to top the DPS and damage done charts.

Whats most boring is people QQing @ me saying that all I have to do is hit 1 button to play my class. I had to hear that about my holy paladin when he was my main and all they would say is that healadins had to chain spam HL. I also heard it with my shadow priest when people would say that the shadow priest rotation is easy because all I had to do was MF to refresh my SW:P. It seems that alot of people want to tell you how easy it is to play your class versus the class they play, and that gets boring. I wonder what class is actually difficult to play in most peoples' opinions?

Like others have said thus far, there are 2 other specs a mage can play...and if your still not satisfied, you can always reroll another class until you find what makes you happy. It could be, that this is not the right game for you if you haven't thought of this on your own.

[Hexxidecimal]

This exactly. I have posted it a million times too.
To "the majority" - Please for the love of all that is sane, read what Plep wrote and try to understand it!

Moot, I have played extensively at 85, it's NOT fun. It IS a difficult spec to play and you DO have to watch your mana bar, these things are true and to a point mana management does make it interesting. It's the way in which you manage your mana that is NOT fun. Arcane has plenty of depth to it and lots of need to be thoughtful about what your pressing but not so you can GAIN dps but so you won't lose DPS and that is where it feels wrong. Most specs reward your attentiveness while Arcane punishes you for it and again by that I mean making sure you clear your stacks in a efficient fashion by pressing Barrage or missiles which DROP your dps when you do.

Again I am not talking about our effectiveness here and even stated so at the beginning of my post so please try and look past that. What I am saying is that the motions we have to go through aren't fun. It's especially not fun to manage your mana really well only to have a frost mage destroy you on the charts. Skill being equal frost will pretty much always edge out Arcane at 85.

In PvP I think we are fine, I am speaking mostly to PvE. Ward works fine when the type of damage you are taking is fire frost or Arcane. But many times you take other types of damage things that a straight shield would need to take care of and while Mana shield will do the trick for survivability you loose waaaaay to much mana in any AoE intensive fight.

Frost does more damage, has better more interesting mechanics and better survivability. Now it's been a long time coming for frost to be a good raid spec and I am really fine with it, I just want Arcane to continue to be a fun raid spec too. If I could at least get a more interesting mechanic doesn't feel like a chore to perform successfully I would still raid Arcane as the damage between the two isn't THAT far off. Missiles used to be something I enjoyed pressing but now it feels way to weak. Something as simple as lowering Blast damage and uping missile damage would be enough I think.

To those who say this is whining, yes it is I make no qualms about that. But the whole "don't like it don't play it" is weak. I LIKED arcane, and it was fun until we became one button happy maniacs who push nothing else other than A. Blast. I WANT it to be good again and hence the whining. Lastly to the guy who says I am TELLING people their opinion, please read my post again and tell me at what point did I say EVERYONE THINKS ARCANE SUCKS!!!!lolo1!!!11 I didn't, I am stating my opinion.

And lastly my OP was NEVER referring to PvP so if you feel I was mixing in PvP talk I wasn't. The need to have some self reliance when it comes to survivability in PvE is very real in Cata. There will be heavy heavy damage all over the place in a lot of fights and your healers won't be able to keep up with it all, as DPS we'll need to learn how to reduce our incoming damage to help them out.

[ChildeRoland]

Arcane is a spec for those that's fans of great numbers. And while maybe not that fun using 3-4 buttons (including cooldowns) at 80-85, leveling as Arcane is perhaps the best spec atm, in terms of being fun and effective.

[Spectral]

So, OP, the whole problem for you could be summarized by saying that you want the proc or switchup button that gets pressed (AM/AB for Arcane, Pyro for Fire, DF and others for Frost) to feel fun, and a big part of feeling fun is that it has a notable damage increase (shiny graphics help too, IMO). I think I buy that completely. It's more exciting to see your proc light up when you know that proc is about to do something that's both visually appealing and does impressive damage, no doubt about it. I think what Blizz was trying for, and it works for some people, is basically that your burn phase as Arcane symbolizes the "oh shiny" moment (I don't mean that pejoratively, I love shinies). You build up to it by working hard to stay at the right amount of mana, then blow everything and hit massive ABs repeatedly.

Does that work for everyone? Nope. It doesn't work for me, for example. I like my procs visually impressive, exciting to press, and highly useful from a damage standpoint. It's one of the many things that makes Fire appealing to me (I'm new to Mage, used to main a 'lock) - I know when Pyro lights up that it's a treat, not just a utility. Same thing for FoF as Frost (which doesn't appeal to me at the moment because I don't want a pet, but that's beside the point). I take it, and I might be wrong, that you largely feel the same way - procs should feel rewarding to press, not just like the correct way to play.

So, the question becomes whether Arcane appeals to enough people, because frankly not every single spec is going to appeal to you or me individually. As a 'lock, Affliction never did a thing for me. When I mained a DK, Frost DPS was never even remotely appealing to me. However, I know legions of people that found both of those specs genuinely exciting, and they swore by them. As long as a spec has a lot of people that think it's fun, and it's reasonably balanced, I think Blizz has more or less done their job from a design standpoint.

If the point of your post is just, "Arcane isn't fun to me"... well, I agree. If you think that means that it needs to be changed, I don't concur. On the flip side though, if you're just tossing out things that you think would make it more appealing to you and possibly more appealing to more people, that's a worthwhile discussion. I'm not sure if your reduce AB damage increase AM idea works though - it would appeal to me, but I think it would cut very severely into the design philosophy of packing an enormous amount of Arcane's damage into a tight window. I haven't mathed it out (obviously), but I'd be inclined to think that any cut to the baseline AB damage would become a more severe, notable hurt on Arcane damage during an AB-stacked, CDs up burn phase, to the point where AM would have to do really substantial damage during non-burn phases. I might even think that'd go so far to all but eliminate burn phases and encourage players to just stay at low AB stacks and play near 100% mana.

Correct me if I'm thinking wrong on anything there... like I said, new Mage.

[Fojos]

Real mages play fire. Its much more fun IMO and it does very good dps if you know how to play. I pulled of 16.2k on Festergut 10 while the other mage (arcane) was doing ~14k

98% of his dps was Arcane Blast, the other 2% was his trinket Reign of the Dead.

Arcane is boring atm, just wait til 85 since that is what everything is balanced around.

Fire is also boring single-target. LB and fireball, and pyroblast at proc (pyroblast refreshes 5% crit, so you only need to do scorch at beginning of fight).

Arcane is harder to be good at when you're level 85, because unlike fire, you don't only need to think about your rotation (Combustion when most dots are up, big deal).

[Milamber]

Ahh the days of Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt...

[Ryft]

The sheep-stun talent provides an interesting mechanic too. You can sheep someone, build up arcane blast stacks on another target, and then switch back to the helpless sheep and own him with a 4-stacked huge hit and then another huge hit while he's stunned.

Another thing you can do with that stun mechanic which I have been toying with is getting a target low on health, then doing a polymorph->Arcane Barrage before the 1st heal tick of the poly.

It acts like a crappy deep freeze, but its still really useful prevent casting and/or triggering of activated defensive cds like AMS and Clos when an opponent is in danger, and gives you 3 seconds (minus your gcd) to free cast something.