4.0.3a - Rogues Back at the Top of the Meters

[Deleted]

I think what he was getting at is that combat maybe be more frenetic but a screwup doesnt cost as much dps as assassination would.

I understand what he meant but it doesn't compensate for the many additional factors that have to be considered with Combat in it's current form, and with Mutilate while errors such as letting Rupture drop are more costly, the general execution is sufficiently simple that this in practice is rather unlikely.

[Bikni]

Mages take so much skill to play though...

Yeah, Rogues pve rotation was really though, has well has their pvp mutilate spec.

[roosterfu]

I understand what he meant but it doesn't compensate for the many additional factors that have to be considered with Combat in it's current form, and with Mutilate while errors such as letting Rupture drop are more costly, the general execution is sufficiently simple that this in practice is rather unlikely.

I agree. That's what I was thinking in my original post, I didn't really explain it that well though. Combat seems frantic on a target dummy so I'd hate to have to be able to manage it in a Cata raid/dungeon situation. While Assassination may punish you more for screwing up the rotation its just easier to maintain than Combat so you will have less screw-ups. With Combat you have to time cooldowns perfectly as well (to stay within the 3% perfect rotation), which will be harder if you have to move or switch targets I think. Hence why I originally said that the difference in damage between the two specs would be more like 5-10% in a normal raid/dungeon situation. I could be wrong and I hope I am because I love Combat, at least I used to love it. But if it plays like crap I just won't do it. I guess we will find out in a couple weeks.

[Sesshou]

Wat. Have you even played both specs post-4.0.1 or are you perhaps just making idle speculation? Having played both specs in a raid situation I can say without hesitation that Assassination is by far the more forgiving rotation now, mainly because it's much less frenetic in terms of preventing energy capping. Combat is going to be highly stressful to play in difficult encounters when you are having to think about Bandit's Guile, varying cooldowns, Revealing Strike at exactly 4cps only, keeping both S&D and rupture up instead of just rupture as with assa, for example. The only valid point you could make is that the difference between the Wrath evisc-only Combat rotation and the new rotation is a mere ~2% so you could possibly just ignore these mechanics, and I'd speculate that even if you don't ignore them the execution difficulty will amount to the same in terms of dps loss. So in reality Combat is a good 5% behind and supplemented with all the other problematic mechanics I would expect it to be an inferior choice, some brief analysis of WoL logs post-4.0.3a suggests that spec inequality is already quite tangible.

Have you actually played both specs? Do you know how they work? BG? You don't really think about it unless you are timing a KS, thats pretty much it. If you have to switch it drops yeah, nothing you can do, dont think about it too much. RvS? Thats extremely forgiving, you hardly gain any dps, its really insignificant. So missing it won't really matter. Rupture? You don't "need" to keep it up, you just use it when its down if you have a finisher. You don't need to go for a high rupture where you try to immediately reapply. Just let it drop and apply it when you can. Keeping SnD up is the ONLY super important part of your rotation. And no I'm not suggesting you ignore any mechanics. Do you know what forgiving means? Forgiving does NOT mean easier. BTW combat is my preferred spec, yes I know how it works. You apparently have no idea whatsoever except you read the tooltips.

Assassination, SnD, Rupture, Envenom buff are all integral parts of your dps. You need to maintain a rather high rupture uptime where combat can be rather casual about it. The envenom buff duration is short which makes monitoring it a tad bit more annoying. Failing to keep a good uptime on either of those will massively nerf your dps where as failing to RvS is far more forgiving.

You should go look up the actual playstyles and not rely on tooltips and your assumptions.

I understand what he meant but it doesn't compensate for the many additional factors that have to be considered with Combat in it's current form, and with Mutilate while errors such as letting Rupture drop are more costly, the general execution is sufficiently simple that this in practice is rather unlikely.

Apparently you don't because you utterly failed to understand the difference between a more forgiving rotation and an easier rotation. Those 2 are not equivalent.

Edit: In case you still can't see your mistake. If something is described as "forgiving", what does this give you information about? The consequences. You clearly want to say that one is "easier" because you are saying its sufficiently simple, but this has to do with either difficulty, effort, or both. That is where you fail and that is why you are wrong.

[Deleted]

Honestly mate I don't think you've even downloaded the patch yet, what utter tosh, from start to finish. You are really just arguing semantics now and it's pathetically transparent, anyone would think you have an ulterior motive to sell the Combat spec and I strongly doubt any individual that has played both specs recently would agree with you. The bottom line is that Combat is going to be somewhat of a nightmare to play in high intensity encounters, it is obvious to anyone with two eyes to see. Reports from the Paragon Rogue tester echoed similar thoughts, that the frantic style of the rotation due to the combination of energy generation and new mechanics have made Combat much more difficult to play in an optimal way. Combined with the already inferior baseline dps, and arguably weaker passive utilities, it would seem that you are going to be frightfully lonely in that camp.

So sure, RvS doesn't contribute much, but try telling that to someone who wants to play the spec optimally. Try telling them it doesn't add to the complexity when they can only hit it at exactly 4cps; with lag, queuing and what not factored in, and the constant battle to prevent energy capping -- really, you are in denial mate, that's what I think it is, either that or you are wearing the largest pair of rose-tinted spectacles ever constructed. Aldriana even suggested dropping the RvS mechanic for difficult encounters; so Combat is already behind before we've even pressed a button and now we are dropping dps abilities? No matter how marginal the increase may be, it's ridiculous frankly.

It also appears that you have failed to grasp basic reading comprehension, because I have already conceded the point that there is more leniency in the Combat rotation in terms of mechanics; however (and I have already pointed this out, please don't make me do so again), it is simply irrelevant. Why? Because complexity and forgivingness are not mutually exclusive. Mutilate is demonstrably less complex/frenetic; there are less mechanics to take into consideration and more time to execute them, which clearly compensates for the more punishing nature of those mechanics (by the way, if you can't speak to this point in a meaningful way in your next reply then I'm not even going to bother continuing the conversation). Then you have Combat on the other hand, which has less punishing mechanics but more of them, and with much less breathing space in addition to already inferior dps.

When you look at the totality of what you are left with it is a more stressful rotation with lower dps or a less stressful rotation (and the obvious benefits of being able to concentrate more on the encounter itself) with higher dps. You don't require psychic abilities to predict which way the majority of Rogues are going to head in Cata.

[sabrelime]

Honestly mate I don't think you've even downloaded the patch yet, what utter tosh, from start to finish. You are really just arguing semantics now and it's pathetically transparent, anyone would think you have an ulterior motive to sell the Combat spec and I strongly doubt any individual that has played both specs recently would agree with you. The bottom line is that Combat is going to be somewhat of a nightmare to play in high intensity encounters, it is obvious to anyone with two eyes to see. Reports from the Paragon Rogue tester echoed similar thoughts, that the frantic style of the rotation due to the combination of energy generation and new mechanics have made Combat much more difficult to play in an optimal way. Combined with the already inferior baseline dps, and arguably weaker passive utilities, it would seem that you are going to be frightfully lonely in that camp.

So sure, RvS doesn't contribute much, but try telling that to someone who wants to play the spec optimally. Try telling them it doesn't add to the complexity when they can only hit it at exactly 4cps; with lag, queuing and what not factored in, and the constant battle to prevent energy capping -- really, you are in denial mate, that's what I think it is, either that or you are wearing the largest pair of rose-tinted spectacles ever constructed. Aldriana even suggested dropping the RvS mechanic for difficult encounters; so Combat is already behind before we've even pressed a button and now we are dropping dps abilities? No matter how marginal the increase may be, it's ridiculous frankly.

It also appears that you have failed to grasp basic reading comprehension, because I have already conceded the point that there is more leniency in the Combat rotation in terms of mechanics; however (and I have already pointed this out, please don't make me do so again), it is simply irrelevant. Why? Because complexity and forgivingness are not isolated concepts. Mutilate is demonstrably less complex/frenetic; there are less mechanics to take into consideration and more time to execute them, which clearly compensates for the more punishing nature of those mechanics (by the way, if you can't speak to this point in a meaningful way in your next reply then I'm not even going to bother continuing the conversation). Then you have Combat on the other hand, which has less punishing mechanics but more of them, and with much less breathing space in addition to already inferior dps.

When you look at the totality of what you are left with it is a more stressful rotation with lower dps or a less stressful rotation (and the obvious benefits of being able to concentrate more on the encounter itself) with higher dps. You don't require psychic abilities to predict which way the majority of Rogues are going to head in Cata.

His point is still correct in that combat is very easy to get most of dps possible out of it.

Rupture is only worth 1% more dps and RvS IS WORTH 100DPS YES REALLY ONLY 100.

If you are trying to optimize combat, YES IT WILL BE HARDER TO PLAY, but that doesn't mean it is less forgiving. Compare that to sub where if you don't press your buttons constantly you are severely punished. Combat just has a lot of its damage in one area.

But like seeshou pointed out you don't have to do high rupture not even for more dps. Low rupture does the same so your just hitting it instead of evis once in awhile. So I don't see your point.

[Deleted]

If you are trying to optimize combat, YES IT WILL BE HARDER TO PLAY

That is the crux of my argument though, that it is already behind Mutilate in dps so you would simply have to play optimally to even come close to it, but if it then becomes harder to play why not just spec Mutilate? It's fairly simple logic which is why I'm finding it rather tedious that this chap won't even acknowledge it.

[AedanWolfe]

That is the crux of my argument though, that it is already behind Mutilate in dps so you would simply have to play optimally to even come close to it, but if it then becomes harder to play why not just spec Mutilate? It's fairly simple logic which is why I'm getting a bit wound up that this guy won't even acknowledge it.

he has his own ideas on things...like words and their meanings and doesnt like to substitute anyones elses. suffice to say you are both right though. combat is harder to optomize, but is also punished less for mistakes.

[Sesshou]

It also appears that you have failed to grasp basic reading comprehension, because I have already conceded the point that there is more leniency in the Combat rotation in terms of mechanics; however (and I have already pointed this out, please don't make me do so again), it is simply irrelevant. Why? Because complexity and forgivingness are not mutually exclusive. Mutilate is demonstrably less complex/frenetic; there are less mechanics to take into consideration and more time to execute them, which clearly compensates for the more punishing nature of those mechanics (by the way, if you can't speak to this point in a meaningful way in your next reply then I'm not even going to bother continuing the conversation). Then you have Combat on the other hand, which has less punishing mechanics but more of them, and with much less breathing space in addition to already inferior dps.

Nope, that pretty much proves that you are the one with reading comprehension problems. I never argued at all over complexity, difficulty, or effort. YOU disagreed with me on whether or not combat was the most FORGIVING. You then side track into this crap about complexity. I'm not arguing that either way, I am only arguing forgiveness of the specs. You just utterly fail to see that, so why did you even disagree with me in the first place.

His point is still correct in that combat is very easy to get most of dps possible out of it.

Rupture is only worth 1% more dps and RvS IS WORTH 100DPS YES REALLY ONLY 100.

If you are trying to optimize combat, YES IT WILL BE HARDER TO PLAY, but that doesn't mean it is less forgiving. Compare that to sub where if you don't press your buttons constantly you are severely punished. Combat just has a lot of its damage in one area.

But like seeshou pointed out you don't have to do high rupture not even for more dps. Low rupture does the same so your just hitting it instead of evis once in awhile. So I don't see your point.

Yeah you pretty much just summed up everything.

he has his own ideas on things...like words and their meanings and doesnt like to substitute anyones elses. suffice to say you are both right though. combat is harder to optomize, but is also punished less for mistakes.

It isn't my fault when people don't understand the meaning of what they are arguing against. He wanted to argue my point about forgiveness with complexity which he can't seem to understand is a different context entirely. A written argument is entirely about the meaning of what is written. If you fail to understand differences, even relatively minor (which isn't the case here), you really have no business entering into the discussion. And if english isn't some ones native language, which I can't tell if it applies here, the person should probably just admit they had a misunderstanding and move on instead of foolishly arguing a point with a completely unrelated counter point.

He apparently lacked the skill to word his point properly. He seemed to want to have argued something entirely different and perhaps should have said "You're right, but combat is more complex and harder to get done perfectly" or something like that. However, instead he argued that I was wrong and combat is less forgiving.

Edit: And I guess i will assume that "my own ideas on things like words and their meanings" means that I actually understand the meanings and the differences between meanings, so thanks.

[Deleted]

Yeah you pretty much just summed up everything.

Yeh he pretty much just proved my point, so thanks for that.

---------- Post added 2010-12-03 at 11:51 PM ----------

he has his own ideas on things...like words and their meanings and doesnt like to substitute anyones elses. suffice to say you are both right though. combat is harder to optomize, but is also punished less for mistakes.

Yeh, I probably wasn't as clear as I ought to have been in the first instance, but it should be clear now. Saying Mutilate is unforgiving is like saying the Arcane Mage 1 button rotation is unforgiving because if they miss an arcane blast their dps will go through the floor. Well wow, it's hard to argue with that logic.

[Sesshou]

Yeh he pretty much just proved my point, so thanks for that.

---------- Post added 2010-12-03 at 11:51 PM ----------



Yeh, I probably wasn't as clear as I ought to have been in the first instance, but it should be clear now. Saying Mutilate is unforgiving is like saying the Arcane Mage 1 button rotation is unforgiving because if they miss an arcane blast their dps will go through the floor. Well wow, it's hard to argue with that logic.

And when I thought you couldn't fail to understand more... incase you forgot here is your original argument:

Having played both specs in a raid situation I can say without hesitation that Assassination is by far the more forgiving rotation now, mainly because it's much less frenetic in terms of preventing energy capping.

He quite obviously agreed with me and not with you when he said:

combat is very easy to get most of dps possible out of it

but that doesn't mean it is less forgiving.

So please explain how he proved the point which you disagreed with me on in your favor?

Edit: Well I guess ill address your mage comparison. You really need to have to similar things to make a solid comparison. Yes you are talking about forgiveness for both but heres the thing: Are you talking about forgiveness in the rotation or forgiveness for doing nothing? Your arguments about rogues thus far relating to forgiveness have been more about the rotation and possibly hitting the wrong move in the wrong place in the rotation. If you are following that line of thought, you can't compare it to a mage just entirely missing an arcane blast because they did nothing. The fair comparison for that would probably be if you accidentally turned off auto attack and didn't hit the boss for a bit. I don't know which would have less forgiveness for standing there and doing nothing briefly, you would have to compare total dps loss.

[Deleted]

He said:

If you are trying to optimize combat, YES IT WILL BE HARDER TO PLAY

Which whether you like it or not is in agreement with what I have been trying to say, which is that you have no choice to optimise and that immediately makes Combat the more difficult spec to play. When I said forgiving I really meant forgiving on your mental state rather than forgiving in terms of dps loss, but as I also said earlier the two are not inseparable, if you are playing a more difficult spec then it is more likely you will have to forego these optimisations in favour of concentrating on the encounter, in which case Combat then falls even further behind.

[AedanWolfe]

people understand the meaning, you just choose (or maybe incapable i dont know) to figure out what they mean, even after they explain it. you take one small word that even a idiot could figure out what they meant by it, and find a argument in it, that was my point.

---------- Post added 2010-12-03 at 07:11 PM ----------

He said:



Which whether you like it or not is in agreement with what I have been trying to say, which is that you have no choice to optimise and that immediately makes Combat the more difficult spec to play. When I said forgiving I really meant forgiving on your mental state rather than forgiving in terms of dps loss, but as I also said earlier the two are not inseparable, if you are playing a more difficult spec then it is more likely you will have to forego these optimisations in favour of concentrating on the encounter, in which case Combat then falls even further behind.

save the trouble, and let him vent by his lonesome, it really doesnt work. your first post was clear enough for most people to get, and was cleared up further no less then 3 posts later, he just wants to argue at this point.

[Sesshou]

Which whether you like it or not is in agreement with what I have been trying to say, which is that you have no choice to optimise and that immediately makes Combat the more difficult spec to play.

No he agreed with half of your point. The half he agreed with was not being contested whatsoever. The only part you were actually arguing was forgiveness. No one argued with you over complexity/difficulty, you were arguing with yourself. So to the point being argued over, forgiveness, he obviously disagreed with you.

@ this:

When I said forgiving I really meant forgiving on your mental state rather than forgiving in terms of dps loss, but as I also said earlier the two are not inseparable

Forgiveness is completely separate from complexity/difficulty. Now I can't tell for sure, you may not be contesting that any more. As for the mental state, what you seem to want to argue is that one is easier on your mental state and less stressful. I won't contest that point. Thats not really a "more forgiving" argument either though.

@this

if you are playing a more difficult spec then it is more likely you will have to forego these optimisations in favour of concentrating on the encounter, in which case Combat then falls even further behind.

You keep saying things like that, but no one is contesting it.

people understand the meaning, you just choose (or maybe incapable i dont know) to figure out what they mean, even after they explain it. you take one small word that even a idiot could figure out what they meant by it, and find a argument in it, that was my point.

I get the feeling you are referring to your error the other day. But like I told you yesterday, its a forum, expect what you write to be read and responded to. All you get on a forum are words and context, there isn't really anything else but that from which to draw meaning. He used the word forgiveness, which is a perfectly fine way of comparing things in this context. That wasn't out of place at all. Had I just changed the word he used to something with a different meaning, then I would just as easily be putting words into his mouth. Do you support just randomly changing the words around that people type to fit what you want to say about it? If he had at that time understood that he used a word originally which did not mean what he wanted it to mean, he should have just fixed it instead of continuing to make it the key point of discussion.

[AedanWolfe]

look at it this way, he made a mistake in his wording. instead of recognizing it, you barrel thru. thats all im saying.

[Powerogue]

20k sounds like an awful exaggeration, all 264's and I deal 9-10k as combat now. still an improvement, I shall deal if only because I HATE having to scour the universe for that one dagger...