Combat Rogues - Should they be changed to use two slow weapons?

[AedanWolfe]

While im not against the idea, i think they actually would need to change a good bit to make comba work as slow/slow

im ok with sharing fast offhands with my rogue brethren anways. less competition then slow/slow.

[DrgnDancer]

Your whole premise is flawed because you're missing that the main reason for a fast off-hand is poison. With every Deadly application proccing a MH poison, the faster the OH the more free continuous damage we do. Combat potency is nice too, but I don' think it's as important as poison. At any rate it's a lot easier to fix than poison.

I'd agree with your idea on Revealing Strike. As it is, it's an incredibly annoying mechanic. I find, personally, that it's almost unusable right now when AR is up. I have to mash buttons like a fiend to prevent energy capping, and trying to slip an RS in while trying not to energy cap and trying not to double apply my fifth CP when and if Imp SS procs is too much to watch at once. Maybe I'm just a bad Rogue. When AR isn't up I still wind up not using RS at least half the time because of Imp SS. All in in all I'd be shocked to find out that RS is adding much of anything to my overall DPS.

My solution to the mastery debacle is simple: reverse it. Make successful offhand strikes have a chance to proc a main hand strike. This makes more sense in every way. It synergies with all of our other weapon speed preferences, it increases scalability and it even make more god damn real world sense. A Main Gauche is a god damn *off hand dagger* in real world fencing. It's used to trap an enemy's weapon to allow an attack with your main hand. That makes sense. That's how real world fighting works *and* it works better for Combat's overall design. They'd have to tone down the numbers to make it not OP, but it would solve the design problems.

[Sesshou]

Yes I agree about the old sword spec being a better idea as well. You got more hits with fast sword, but for less damage. Or, less hits with slow swords, but for more damage. That does seem like a much more balanced idea and I would much rather have that as a mastery other than this crappy idea about main gauche, where the mastery alone works optimally with a slow offhand a fast mainhand for some weird reason.


Also, about revealing strike... I just feel as if it is a bad idea. It boosts the damage of your finishing move - this in a tree that is based around a slow but strong combo point generator.

I think you are misunderstanding old sword spec. Both weapons proc'd main hand swings. Thats why it was amazing because the fast weapon proc'd hard hitting attacks. It wasn't fast weapon proc'ing weaker fast hits.

And I agree RvS is crap. Wtf were they thinking, I'm fine with the idea because our finishers are super weak, but the damage they let it do is worthless. Its estimated to be a 100 dps gain to use the thing. You could also just not pick it up and grab another utility talent for the cost of that 100 dps. With the current damage of RvS, I would honestly rather have riposte back since I actually did get to use that a lot in pvp. But still, it being crap isn't a core mechanic issue imo.

I like these ideas since haste will be good for energy regain now i can just stack haste till my 2 slow weapons are hitting fast and that would a lot more fun then having a fricking dagger.
The idea for restless blades is very good since combat rogues will be using recuperate and snd quite often during raids.
You should send these ideas in so they can have a good look at them so at least someone will have a idea on how to fix us rogues.

What in the world are you talking about. If you stack haste so slow weapons are hitting fast, fast weapons would be hitting retardly fast. You can never catch up to the dps loss from slow weapons with haste...

We will be using SnD often. We will be using recup very, very occasionally when the situation demands it. People keep getting caught up on "omg healer mana" but if the dps sacrifices dps to heal themselves constantly, the fight is longer and they end up using even more mana.

My solution to the mastery debacle is simple: reverse it. Make successful offhand strikes have a chance to proc a main hand strike. This makes more sense in every way. It synergies with all of our other weapon speed preferences, it increases scalability and it even make more god damn real world sense. A Main Gauche is a god damn *off hand dagger* in real world fencing. It's used to trap an enemy's weapon to allow an attack with your main hand. That makes sense. That's how real world fighting works *and* it works better for Combat's overall design. They'd hove to tone down the numbers to make it not OP, but it would solve the design problems.

Actually I had that same argument like a month ago. You don't attack with a parrying dagger. They misnamed it. I agree they should change it. They won't anytime soon though. They might not ever because their amazing reasoning was it gives us more energy thus less reliance on passive damage...

[mercutiouk]

I think it might be nice to give some degree of choice. Eg a slow weapon cuts your energy regain but will beef up offhand hits and make killing spree hurt A LOT. Rogue have always been a bit spreadsheety and tho it's a direction blizz want to move away from allowing a little depth to the building of a rogue would be pretty cool.
I THINK we are the only fast offhand class in the game too (I say "we" i'm now an enhance shammy but spent the last 3.5 years as a very good rogue) so it might be one way to reduce some of the items only the rogues will need/use. Depends if they want to go all the way with slow/slow or give the tweakable compromise as above.

[Sesshou]

I think it might be nice to give some degree of choice. Eg a slow weapon cuts your energy regain but will beef up offhand hits and make killing spree hurt A LOT. Rogue have always been a bit spreadsheety and tho it's a direction blizz want to move away from allowing a little depth to the building of a rogue would be pretty cool.
I THINK we are the only fast offhand class in the game too (I say "we" i'm now an enhance shammy but spent the last 3.5 years as a very good rogue) so it might be one way to reduce some of the items only the rogues will need/use. Depends if they want to go all the way with slow/slow or give the tweakable compromise as above.

What do you mean if they want to go all the way with slow/slow? They haven't gone anywhere with it... all they did was screw us on offhands by not making any ideal ones.

[Duhsquishuh]

If it were changed to two slow weapons Blizz would need to implement an entirely new energy regeneration talent for combat rogues, as Combat Potency would be pretty damn useless, which may require me to keep track of another timer. Playing with the high rupture style is fairly enough for me atm while in order for max DPS I also have to monitor my Bandit's Guile to know when to pop CDs for max DPS. While Blizz could essentially do it why would they? Combat is fine as is, why change a playstyle that doesn't need to be changed? Blizz has far bigger issues to devote time and resources to.

---------- Post added 2010-12-04 at 12:13 PM ----------

I don't think energy regeneration would over take raw damage any way, but theory crafting would probably say otherwise.

I lol'd. More energy regen = more damage. Without energy regen we would barely be able to keep up SnD and Rupture at the same time as well as getting off Eviscerates in the middle of that. Also a lot of the damage from SS would be gone.

The idea for restless blades is very good since combat rogues will be using recuperate and snd quite often during raids.

Changing Restless Blades so it also works with recuperate and SnD is a bad idea. Maybe if you think Blizz should do everything to make Combat OP it'd be a good idea. The point of it not working with SnD and Recuperate is so it doesn't reduce the CD of KS and AR too much which in turn would make it OP.

[Sesshou]

If it were changed to two slow weapons Blizz would need to implement an entirely new energy regeneration talent for combat rogues, as Combat Potency would be pretty damn useless, which may require me to keep track of another timer. Playing with the high rupture style is fairly enough for me atm while in order for max DPS I also have to monitor my Bandit's Guile to know when to pop CDs for max DPS. While Blizz could essentially do it why would they? Combat is fine as is, why change a playstyle that doesn't need to be changed? Blizz has far bigger issues to devote time and resources to.

---------- Post added 2010-12-04 at 12:13 PM ----------


I lol'd. More energy regen = more damage. Without energy regen we would barely be able to keep up SnD and Rupture at the same time as well as getting off Eviscerates in the middle of that. Also a lot of the damage from SS would be gone.


Changing Restless Blades so it also works with recuperate and SnD is a bad idea. Maybe if you think Blizz should do everything to make Combat OP it'd be a good idea. The point of it not working with SnD and Recuperate is so it doesn't reduce the CD of KS and AR too much which in turn would make it OP.

No they could potentially keep combat potency and just give it a ppm. Granted that alone wouldn't change the offhand situation.

You don't need high rupture as combat. The advised rotation is low rupture which takes hardly any effort. You just casually rupture if it isn't up, you don't need to pool or anything really. The only CD you really need to watch for BG is KS. The current theory is that AR doesn't really need to be stacked (though you don't need to avoid stacking it either). If you think about it, if you use AR at moderate insight then yeah you will get 20% and 30% damage on all the extra moves you do from the energy, but if you use it at some other time, you will minimize the time you spend without high insight by rapidly moving through the stages.

Energy regen = more damage IFF you can spend the energy. For example, one of the big problems with the "MG gives you energy" model is that there are parts in our rotation where a proc will put us over cap.

[Sand Person]

if they changed it to slow/slow then it would be easier on blizz also. less itemization. the only ones who really use fast 1h agi weapons like maces(do they even make these anymore?), axes, and swords are rogues. though enh shammys will be mad.

[Nosferato]

well one way to do it is to make the energy gain by hit work like the energy cost of shiv, maybe also do the same with poison dmg aswell, then assa could get a problem, but a talent fix in the assa tree could fix it

[Vitorog]

Its main gauche, you cant have a main gauche huge axe,you need something small and fast, like a dagger.
Combat rogue is a fencer, a swashbuckler, the idea is good, only the mastery numbers are kinda meh now.

[Sesshou]

Its main gauche, you cant have a main gauche huge axe,you need something small and fast, like a dagger.
Combat rogue is a fencer, a swashbuckler, the idea is good, only the mastery numbers are kinda meh now.

Its main gauche, you don't hit with a main gauche period. It is a parrying dagger, which you use to parry your opponents weapon and create an opening for you to strike with your main hand. That fighting style generally has the main weapon in the front hand which means the parrying dagger is in the further back hand. If you also consider the length of a parrying dagger, a counter attack with it is unlikely (thought I won't say not possible, but clearly not suited for it).

You say a combat rogue is a fencer, thats wrong. Fencers use rapiers or sabers. Please point to the main stream rogue weapon (in all expansions) that came from an end game raid which is either of those? You say swashbuckler, yet the swashbuckler style uses a BUCKLER, which we can't use.

Anyway you may be wondering what my point with all that is... Blizzard has obviously overlooked so much crap that allowing us to use an axe/sword/mace/fist for the purpose of MG isn't that strange.