[Resto] Druid Guide - 5.0+

[Druover]

So I was looking at some of the top druids today and noticed that vodka's top resto druid is currently rolling with 3/3 furor and 2/3 moonglow. I know conventional wisdom is that moonglow is better for the vast majority of situations, with the exception of very short fights. Granted maybe their guild at the time was working on a shorter heroic fight.

Since furor is based off of max mana, I'm also wondering if the int levels on gear for this tier are giving such high mana levels, that furor's value has increased. So maybe know instead of furor being better if fight is less than 4 minutes (or whatever the rule of thumb was), maybe all the extra int has furor better than moonglow now for fights less than 8 minutes (for example, have no clue of actual number).

Is anyone aware of any testing on these two talents based on current gear levels. The sentiment still seems to favor moonglow, but I haven't seen any actual numbers of comparison based on current int levels. I'm sure for the much longer fights like madness that moonglow would still greatly outweigh furor, but who knows. eventually int levels could be so high that the extra regen from replenishment and innervate will outpace the mana savings from moonglow.

Thanks in advance!

[tangedyn]

So I was looking at some of the top druids today and noticed that vodka's top resto druid is currently rolling with 3/3 furor and 2/3 moonglow. I know conventional wisdom is that moonglow is better for the vast majority of situations, with the exception of very short fights. Granted maybe their guild at the time was working on a shorter heroic fight.

Since furor is based off of max mana, I'm also wondering if the int levels on gear for this tier are giving such high mana levels, that furor's value has increased. So maybe know instead of furor being better if fight is less than 4 minutes (or whatever the rule of thumb was), maybe all the extra int has furor better than moonglow now for fights less than 8 minutes (for example, have no clue of actual number).

Is anyone aware of any testing on these two talents based on current gear levels. The sentiment still seems to favor moonglow, but I haven't seen any actual numbers of comparison based on current int levels. I'm sure for the much longer fights like madness that moonglow would still greatly outweigh furor, but who knows. eventually int levels could be so high that the extra regen from replenishment and innervate will outpace the mana savings from moonglow.

Because I'm no longer needed to have a resto OS for my raid, my resto spreadsheet default profile instead tracks a particular druid through her gear progression. I don't know her, but her profile was recommended to me by Lissanna, so every so often I update the spreadsheet as she updates her gear. I've noticed that the crossover point in encounter duration where Moonglow overtakes Furor in value can vary quite wildly, depending on Intellect and Spirit ratio, and bonuses like 2T12. At the start of Tier 11, most profiles would have the crossover point at 3 minutes, but at times I've seen it go as high as 7.5 minutes with profiles a few weeks back.

So there really isn't any rule that works for everyone. My recommendation would be to use my spreadsheet, enter your stats, set Furor and Moonglow to 2, then look at the IEP values for Furor and Moonglow for the Duration/Raid (or Duration/MT if you are one of the rare resto MT healers). Mess around with the encounter duration to see how the IEP values are affected.

[Catokot]

Since furor is based off of max mana, I'm also wondering if the int levels on gear for this tier are giving such high mana levels, that furor's value has increased. So maybe know instead of furor being better if fight is less than 4 minutes (or whatever the rule of thumb was), maybe all the extra int has furor better than moonglow now for fights less than 8 minutes (for example, have no clue of actual number).

It all depends on how many spells you cast on average in a given time window. On a fight like ultraxion, moonglow may be superior if it takes you more than 4 minutes to kill a boss, whereas a fight like spine moonglow might only overtake furor by the 8 or 9 minute mark. I run with 3/3 furor and 2/3 moonglow because given my spellcasting tendencies, furor is better up until about the 7 minute mark, on average. Theres a lot of really awkward math behind it though, since the more spells you cast the more valuable moonglow becomes, and if you aren't casting enough spells then you don't need the mana anyways.

The way I've been looking at it, assuming you are working on heroics, is anything under 6 minutes at a 395ish + gear level you are almost guaranteed to get more out of furor.

Morchok doesn't take 6 minutes to kill, even with 4 healers.
Yor'sahj gets iffy between the two, since you always have replenishment/revitalize ticking, but the fight can be close to 10 minutes depending on dps. I'd say furor is the winner here too, since healing is far from spammy to make moonglow better, but it could be debated.
Zon'ozz enrages at 6, so furor.
Hagara has an 8 minute enrage, but you don't really cast a bunch of heals during the ice phase, and the only part where healing is rough is lightning phase which goes super quick. Again, I'd vote furor, but debatable.
Ultraxion - 6 minute enrage, but very spammy healing nature. Which one will benefit you more depends on your cohealer. If you are filling every gcd for the last 3 minutes of the fight, you'll definitely want moonglow.

I haven't done warmaster/spine/madness on heroic, but I'd imagine the length of spine/madness put moonglow ahead. Warmaster would be debatable, but moonglow is probably the winner there too.

10 man raider, not sure about numbers on 25's.

[Deleted]

Running 3/3 Furor 2/3 Moonglow in 25's.

I've not done any maths, but for most fights I just prefer furor and the larger mana pools. I probably should swap into Genesis as I usually have 2 MTT's and 2 Hymns to play with, but meh if it isn't broken I don't worry too much about it. 6/8 25m HM's for fwiw.

[ODDLAWL]

I know this isn't a "fix my HPS" thread but I've been reading all the arguments and scuffles people get into in here and I'm still at a loss. I still don't understand how Furor is best to take over Genesis, when Genesis seems to me like its overall more hps. I also see a lot of end-game badasses speccing into Naturalist and I don't understand why, maybe its because I don't raid hard modes on my moderately well geared alt resto druid (I do on my Disc priest), but I had this generalized idea that if you're not specced into Naturalist "it's okay" because you're a "raid healer". I've also seen many arguments agains BotG, when again, it seems to me like it's just overall more hps. Maybe I also have the notion of a Resto Druid all wrong, but I don't see these kind of enigmas and questions when it comes to a Disc priest.

I know many people will just say "it all depends on you and how you play" and while I do understand this completely, there must be a "recognized" widely used spec and MUST HAVE points (besides the obvious ones) that people tend to gravitate towards. Maybe I'm also trying too hard, just because in my head Resto Druids are just too OP (tranqqq).

Is BotG bad? Should I spec out of it in my two resto specs? Is Furor really better in Dragon Soul this time around? Wouldn't it be an hps loss to find time to Nourish and HT people during an encounter if I spec into Naturalist? What do YOU do to keep Harmony up, because my uptime on that is so shit... Even with a Power Aura I still forget to refresh it. Sometimes I like to believe it's because I don't actively play a Resto Druid as my main, so it's not something that I innately know when to refresh.

bold to accentuate the complete neutrality of my questions and assumptions, I'm not here to step on your main Resto toes.

[Sultrees]

How much base spirit is necessary?

[Deleted]

Hello guys
so yesterday I went raiding with my guild and we were running with 4 healers at Morchok (2 disc Priests a paladin and me)

here are the logs from our kill

and here is my armory

any creative thoughts as to why I was last healing done -wise?
I mean I thought that maybe the priest were pre-shielding for stomps so am I supposed to be pre rjing?Am I supposed to spam rejuvs on everyone?
Also wg?Am I supposed to use it every cd because it seems like a waste to do so when everybody is full
I would appreciate the advice
thanks!


PS:I just made some changes to my spec to try it out next time(Nature's Cure for warlord)

[Druover]

I know this isn't a "fix my HPS" thread but I've been reading all the arguments and scuffles people get into in here and I'm still at a loss. I still don't understand how Furor is best to take over Genesis, when Genesis seems to me like its overall more hps. I also see a lot of end-game badasses speccing into Naturalist and I don't understand why, maybe its because I don't raid hard modes on my moderately well geared alt resto druid (I do on my Disc priest), but I had this generalized idea that if you're not specced into Naturalist "it's okay" because you're a "raid healer". I've also seen many arguments agains BotG, when again, it seems to me like it's just overall more hps. Maybe I also have the notion of a Resto Druid all wrong, but I don't see these kind of enigmas and questions when it comes to a Disc priest.

I know many people will just say "it all depends on you and how you play" and while I do understand this completely, there must be a "recognized" widely used spec and MUST HAVE points (besides the obvious ones) that people tend to gravitate towards. Maybe I'm also trying too hard, just because in my head Resto Druids are just too OP (tranqqq).

Is BotG bad? Should I spec out of it in my two resto specs? Is Furor really better in Dragon Soul this time around? Wouldn't it be an hps loss to find time to Nourish and HT people during an encounter if I spec into Naturalist? What do YOU do to keep Harmony up, because my uptime on that is so shit... Even with a Power Aura I still forget to refresh it. Sometimes I like to believe it's because I don't actively play a Resto Druid as my main, so it's not something that I innately know when to refresh.

bold to accentuate the complete neutrality of my questions and assumptions, I'm not here to step on your main Resto toes.

I'll do my best to answer so you get a quick answer, and then the real experts can correct/fill in what I've missed.

furor/genesis. The overall theory is that furor is mana and genesis throughput obviously. So there is an amount of spirit that would be equivalent to the mana this is gained from furor. If you respec this same amount of spirit into mastery, the throughput gains from the extra mastery will outweigh the throughput gains from genesis. So genesis is obviously better throughput than furor on its own, but if you assume you need a set amount of mana regen, it will be better throughput to get that regen from furor (and then having more mastery) instead of from spirit (and having genesis). Because of the very high int levels this tier, the furor dynamics are better, and therefore, you can reforge even more spirit off because of furor than you could at earlier tiers (strictly speaking from a furor equivalence point of view). off topic, but Tang even said he's seen his spreadsheet show situations where furor can be better for regen than moonglow on fights up to 8 min. (not advocating making this switch...just saying)

I'm not really going to attempt to answer your question about naturalist. I have it, but i raid 10 mans and cast HT on tank alot if WG and swiftmend are on CD and theres no raid damage. If you dont use those spells, then naturalist wouldn't be the best, but the other options on those talent tiers aren't that great either.

Botg is additive, not multiplicative, so it doesn't end up truly being the hps increase it states. Again, I'll let the board experts answer in more detail, but the spreadsheets tang created shows that other talents outweigh it. I'm under the impression that living seed and botg are both not the best, and different situations/group sizes make one slightly edge out the other.

Harmony uptime: this goes to your point about naturalist talent as well. With the talented crit increase, regrowth is almost as much pure healing as healing touch, and much better hps. so I've seen some saying they basically always regrowth instead of healing touch. however, regrowth also is the only control of your very powerful naturee's grace haste buff. Because I like to control when I get this buff, I use healing touch for ooc procs and to keep harmony up, allowing me to regrowth right before an intensive healing phase for the extra ticks on the hots from natures grace. So I get alot more out of the HT/nourish cast time reduction than i would the other talents available at those talent tiers.

Hope this helps, and again, I've sure others will elaborate more!!

[Dargone]

How much base spirit is necessary?

Unable to really answer without knowledge of your playstyle, raid makeup, what level you are raiding at, and a myriad of other factors. The general rule of thumb is to have enough that you can last through the most mana intensive encounter you raid.

[Thalur]

Hello guys
so yesterday I went raiding with my guild and we were running with 4 healers at Morchok (2 disc Priests a paladin and me)

here are the logs from our kill

and here is my armory

any creative thoughts as to why I was last healing done -wise?
I mean I thought that maybe the priest were pre-shielding for stomps so am I supposed to be pre rjing?Am I supposed to spam rejuvs on everyone?
Also wg?Am I supposed to use it every cd because it seems like a waste to do so when everybody is full
I would appreciate the advice
thanks!

I can give you some advice here. Comparing to our kill yesterday, a few things in your playstyle can be improved.
First, yes you should definitely pre-rj your whole group. Basically, from the first stomp on in each phase, everyone should always have your rj up. There are only 5 peolpe so that's not problem to maintain. Second, you need to use Swiftmend more. After each stomp (or then as soon as it's ready), use SM. You have 4pT12, so that's healing doubled, and you proc Efflo which is strong in this fight. And last, your harmony uptime looks a bit low (possibly due to too little SM usage).

Also, your gearing/spec is off. You have no mana regen talents, but more than 3000 spirit. Sorry, this is wrong. You would get a lot more throughput AND regen by speccing into Moonglow and Furor, and then reforging spirit to < 2000. You can read more TC on that on EJ: http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/1152-h...oices_healers/

[Deleted]

I can give you some advice here. Comparing to our kill yesterday, a few things in your playstyle can be improved.
First, yes you should definitely pre-rj your whole group. Basically, from the first stomp on in each phase, everyone should always have your rj up. There are only 5 peolpe so that's not problem to maintain. Second, you need to use Swiftmend more. After each stomp (or then as soon as it's ready), use SM. You have 4pT12, so that's healing doubled, and you proc Efflo which is strong in this fight. And last, your harmony uptime looks a bit low (possibly due to too little SM usage).

Also, your gearing/spec is off. You have no mana regen talents, but more than 3000 spirit. Sorry, this is wrong. You would get a lot more throughput AND regen by speccing into Moonglow and Furor, and then reforging spirit to < 2000. You can read more TC on that on EJ: http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/1152-h...oices_healers/

yes so more rj usage obviously...and I used sm with the first stomp and then tried to time it with stomps that are close to the crystal exploding (when people are stacked)...

ok So gear
so with these talents that I have should I reforge out of spirit???
so in general if I go with this throughput talent build do I reforge all my spirit away?
and if I take mana regen talents should I keep my reforges as they are?

thanks I appreciate it!

[Thalur]

ok So gear
so with these talents that I have should I reforge out of spirit???
so in general if I go with this throughput talent build do I reforge all my spirit away?
and if I take mana regen talents should I keep my reforges as they are?

No, you should adjust both gear and talent build, as they need to work together. Currently you have no mana regen talents but a lot of spirit. That's not a bad idea, but TC shows that the other way is better as it gives more throughput as well as more mana regen. So you should adjust your spec to include Moonglow and Furor, and then reforge spirit to mastery. To what extend really depends on how much regen you need, usually 2000 should be enough but that depends on play style and trinkets.

[Deleted]

No, you should adjust both gear and talent build, as they need to work together. Currently you have no mana regen talents but a lot of spirit. That's not a bad idea, but TC shows that the other way is better as it gives more throughput as well as more mana regen. So you should adjust your spec to include Moonglow and Furor, and then reforge spirit to mastery. To what extend really depends on how much regen you need, usually 2000 should be enough but that depends on play style and trinkets.

ok so I'm just going to experiment a little bit with maybe some normal ds and try to find the perfect balance...
I'll post my results and what works best for me :P

[Jumpieboi]

I'm wondering if the haste benefit to http://www.wowhead.com/item=77190/ti...-steps-of-time is more beneficial than the stats on http://www.wowhead.com/item=71797/sh...f-annihilation

I've pondered over this for a while, but I just can't seem to wrap my brain around losing 357 mastery + 150 crit + 99 haste for 160 spell power, 48 int, and a chance for lots and lots of haste to me + 3 allies.

I've seen EJ's list http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t127489-...n_dragon_soul/ on weapons and this is apparently BIS for a resto druid, but I was wondering about all of your thoughts.

Edit - It should probably be noted that I am in fact running 10 man ATM, despite what my signature states.

[Dracodraco]

Haste is the worst stat for resto druids outside of a breakpoint. Even then, a proc related breakpoint is very, very weak. You're better off getting your hand on the warmaster blackhorn staff, or the actual healer weapon from deathwing .

[Quse]

The thread you linked is not a BiS gear list for druids:

As a forum we will not be doing a formalized BiS list.

It's nothing more than a list of the gear available to druids within the current tier.

The poster above me is spot on, the staff from Blackhorn or the Maw from Deathwing (LFR and above) are better choices. If you have a somewhat respectable OH the scalpel (wowhead.com/item=77219) from Yor'sahj is also another strong choice.

[Deleted]

Haste is the worst stat for resto druids outside of a breakpoint. Even then, a proc related breakpoint is very, very weak. You're better off getting your hand on the warmaster blackhorn staff, or the actual healer weapon from deathwing .

haste is not a waste outside the 2005 breakpoint..each haste limit reach is extra ticks in wg or rej or tranq or lb...so unless you having mana issues having more than 2005 is not bad. It also lower casting time (better hps) etc..

Maw is a great weapon and i feel sorry i havent start using it before... because of lack of a stat.

[Dracodraco]

haste is not a waste outside the 2005 breakpoint..each haste limit reach is extra ticks in wg or rej or tranq or lb...so unless you having mana issues having more than 2005 is not bad. It also lower casting time (better hps) etc..

Maw is a great weapon and i feel sorry i havent start using it before... because of lack of a stat.

I never said it was a waste. I said it was the *worst* stat we could ever stack outside of a breakpoint. Mastery and Crit are both worth more if you are not reaching a breakpoint. Along with that, any proc related breakpoints will be quite bad, as there is a low uptime, and WG/swiftmend both have cooldowns, meaning you will only get to use them a few times. It can also proc when the haste is entirely wasted due to downtime in the encounter, making it even worse.

And for those doubting how good the mace actually is, I was healing heroic ultrax in our alt 10 man tonight, where it did 1.3M healing, 6% of my overall healing, and that will be significantly higher in 25 man due to more targets (log: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ne/?s=76&e=404 )

[Deleted]

maw is a wicked weapon its does alot of healing in raids. But concerning haste did you think that faster casting (since more haste lowers casting) could mean more procs for maw? therefore increase healing output?

i mean even if you 100 points away or above a haste limit is not totally bad. Crit is based on chance and while i value it as stat i also know it depends on "luck" (bad word i know but cant find any better).

[Myrrar]

That's not how stats work. When comparing 20 crit, 20 mastery, 20 haste it takes into account exactly how each stat works. Haste above the cap will lead to less healing than switching that to crit or mastery. 100 wasted stats is like not eating on a pull. You want to max out your druid as much as possible, getting haste to sit right on/over the cap is going to increase your healing, no matter how low or high the number is. I wouldn't reforge all my gear everytime I got an up to be right on the cap, but you want to get as close as you can.




The proc also has a 15 sec icd, if you are healing correctly as a druid 'throwing more heals out' isn't going to help/increase the proc uptime. You already have a ton of hots ticking, you will already easily be at cap to be getting the proc out on CD.