The Convince Me Sub Is Not An Awesome Raiding Spec

[shockedandawed]

Title says it all convince me how sub is not an amazing spec. It has such great talents and HoT is epic. I just dont see how assassinations talent pool does anything

[Joker12489]

............are you trolling cause mutilate is top dps atm lol

[shockedandawed]

Like to achieve the most damage I see all of Subs talents doing great stuff I just don't understand Assassinations talents.

[Abbeel]

I've yet to see a single rogue break 8k DPS since I dropped my rogue in October.

So...eh. I guess Sub might be awesome. I mean awesome doesn't have to mean best, right?

[Jeer]

assassination beats sub by a lot, it's also waaay easier to play

[Jazzhands]

Sub is fun to play, but its damage is sub par compared to mutilate. And yeah, mut is a ton easier to play.

[shockedandawed]

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#fchcZZcGcbduhRGo look how beautiful this spec is so clean no 2/3 or 1/2s its amazing

[Unrully]

It's not. I don't need to convince you it's not.

If you want to use it, go ahead.

You'll do less DPS than any halfway decent Mut rogue and you won't get into a guild doing it.

So, have fun.

[Oneirophobia]

Fun? Yes. Good? Not really, no.
On WoW in terms of trees, Fun=/=Good, usually. :C

Try mute you'll be happy once you get the hang of it. Bigger numbers. Not as fun imo though.
But hey, WoW is about recount and gearscore, not fun.

[Dakara]

Mut does more damage, and doesn't suffer as much of a DPS loss on non tank'n'spank fights.

If anyone wants sub to be raid viable, it's me, I <3 the spec. But it's lowest DPS spec at the moment, and by a wide margin. Not to mention, the rotation is harder to sustain (not complex)... i.e. you need to use more finishers.

Recoup, SND + Rupture need to all stay up and unlike Assassination, the "Refresh Talent" is percentage based, meaning while Assassination can 1 CP SnD followed by 1 CP Envenom to net a 5 CP SnD, Sub only has a 20% chance per CP on Evis to refresh Rupture (and not to it's max duration).

So not only does Sub have more buffs/debuffs to keep up, they're harder to sustain. It's just not in a good place for PvE.

[Nartalath]

Sub is so much fun to play. :3 I think every rogue wishes it's difficulty was rewarded with top raid dps among the 3 trees.

However, mutilate is top score. Anyone who raids somewhat seriously and min/max's will go mutilate.

[surr3a1]

@shockedandawed: just one question... how exactly do you think you will manage with the hit cap with that build? I have hit on almost all of my items plus almost all of them are reforged to hit, plus hit gems, plus hit enchants PLUS 2 points in Precision and I am a little above the spell hit cap. It is not only fun, that you have to take into account my friend. Plus one CP each 4 sec is not so good.

I just saw that you do not have Energetic Recover in your build... one question, are we speaking about PVP or PVE here, I am confused? You should be able to put a value on that talent for PVE right?

Put some thought in the build man... things are not as simple as they seem...

5/2/34 is your build in general, where you may take one point from Lethality to put it in Precision. As I do not play sub I may be mistaken with the spell hit cap value but it should be the same as Assassination.

[Annoying]

I've yet to see a single rogue break 8k DPS since I dropped my rogue in October.

So...eh. I guess Sub might be awesome. I mean awesome doesn't have to mean best, right?

8's pretty low.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4399&e=4790

As it stands, Assn rogues are optimal in all cases, with combat not far behind. Sub is a good 2-5k behind depending on gear and boss fight.

[Deleted]

I dont know, i tend to do 10-12k on 5 man heroics (depending on fight), and i only play as subt... but i did try mut yesterday (didnt change much of my gear though) and i just wasnt impressed by it, its too easy, granted the 30k crits were nice, but i crit for 18 + with backstab ambush and evis... now i havent raided yet, i will this tuesday to see for sure how it handles

[Apellosine]

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#fchcZZcGcbduhRGo look how beautiful this spec is so clean no 2/3 or 1/2s its amazing

that's a pretty bad version of sub i think as you are leaving out the recouperate talent "Energetic Recovery" which is a key part of the spec for energy regeneration.

may want to try:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#fchcZZcGcfdh0RGo

also it's easier for sub to maintain SnD, Recouperate and Rupture (through Eviscerate) with it's combo point generation from Honour Amongst Thieves giving a point about every 2 and a bit seconds in a raid environment, it is unfortunate however that it does not reward good play as much as the much simpler mute rotation.

[Deleted]

So Blizz failed in order to make all specs about the same and all rogues are choosing Mut instead of Sub just because it is better in a objetive (not subjetive, as intended) way. Well done blizzard!