[TV] Doctor Who

[Shockeye]

From that link -
"They had a way of making their enemies angry with words. They knew how to fight pen (or mouth/brain) to sword and that’s what made them so great."

Yes, absolutely, yes.

Not since Eccleston's Doctor has the Doctor caused his enemies to be afraid through sheer force of intellect and determination. After that any attempts pretty much had the Doctor relying on his reputation more than using his intellect to win. And by the time of the 11th, there was no intellect, he was utterly dependent on his sonic screwdriver to solve all his problems, give all the answers, figure everything out with a wave of his magic wand.

I'd like to see the 12th Doctor pull a 5th and break the sonic and never get around to fixing it.

As for RTD and Moffat and their capabilities, I think RTD has a greater understanding of who, and what, the Doctor is. Unfortunately he tied that to a lot of romantic baggage and a loathesome companion (Rose). But I think that, surprising as it is, I preferred RTD's run even with the stupid deux ex machina crap to Moffat's hyperkinetic fairy tale. Russell understood the Doctor very well and I don't think Moffat really does.
Hopefully Capaldi, with his lifelong fandom and indicated comprehension of the show and character, can add back the *Doctor* to the show.

[Deleted]

From that link -
"They had a way of making their enemies angry with words. They knew how to fight pen (or mouth/brain) to sword and that’s what made them so great."

Yes, absolutely, yes.

Not since Eccleston's Doctor has the Doctor caused his enemies to be afraid through sheer force of intellect and determination. After that any attempts pretty much had the Doctor relying on his reputation more than using his intellect to win. And by the time of the 11th, there was no intellect, he was utterly dependent on his sonic screwdriver to solve all his problems, give all the answers, figure everything out with a wave of his magic wand.

I'd like to see the 12th Doctor pull a 5th and break the sonic and never get around to fixing it.

As for RTD and Moffat and their capabilities, I think RTD has a greater understanding of who, and what, the Doctor is. Unfortunately he tied that to a lot of romantic baggage and a loathesome companion (Rose). But I think that, surprising as it is, I preferred RTD's run even with the stupid deux ex machina crap to Moffat's hyperkinetic fairy tale. Russell understood the Doctor very well and I don't think Moffat really does.
Hopefully Capaldi, with his lifelong fandom and indicated comprehension of the show and character, can add back the *Doctor* to the show.

I honestly had no problems with the "fairy tale" DW. I remember when I first watched "The Eleventh Hour", especially that early parts when 11 crash lands in Amy's garden, that entire episode has quite a fairy tale-ish feel and it was VERY WELL done, and I was really hooked on to that atmosphere.

I think my main gripe with Moffat is how he made the Doctor pretty much god. He is the most important person in the universe. Everybody knows him. The entire universe revolves around the Doctor. That just really kills it for me. I can liken it to how I perceived superhero fiction before I watched the X-Men trilogy movies. I have never been much of a comic man and I never really gave superhero fictions a chance because I had a prejudice how they are all about how some freak with uber-super-duper powers that make suspending disbelief impossible saves the day and how he is the best of everything and whatever, I hope you get the point. Then I gave in and watched the X-men trilogy and I was blown away and was proven wrong. The characters had powers and shit but they were undeniably human, with flaws and weaknesses and the trilogy reflected very real-life issues as opposed to how a superfreak is the best of everything.

This is what I feel about present day Who, I mean, the Doctor is now the absolute center of the universe to the point where his true name is the ultimate be all end all question of the universe and this just kills anything interesting regarding him. While RTD's era was more akin to how I perceived the X-men trilogy compared to what my perception of superhero fiction was.

This was also visible in Moffat's RTD-era work a bit, namely when in Silence... he tells the vashta nerada to look who he is up in a book, and these words of his reputation is enough to make them draw back, but it was never this overblown as it is now.

[Redmage]

11 does rely way way too much on the screwdriver, and it seems every episode it becomes more of a magic wand then a tool.

This finally started to piss me off in The Rings of Akhaten where he literally got into a harry potter style wand battle with the guardians in the tomb.

[Gallahadd]

This finally started to piss me off in The Rings of Akhaten where he literally got into a harry potter style wand battle with the guardians in the tomb.

Yeah that was fucking stupid, they need to REALLY limit the Screwdriver usage for 12, maybe even get rid of it entirely and focus more on intellect and force of character.

[Patriciatanner]

Sorry guys but i don't like the tv serial doctor who because i hate donna.

[Gallahadd]

you realise she's only in one season right you can just skip her episodes if she annoys you that much.

[Shockeye]

I think my main gripe with Moffat is how he made the Doctor pretty much god. He is the most important person in the universe. Everybody knows him. The entire universe revolves around the Doctor. That just really kills it for me. ...I mean, the Doctor is now the absolute center of the universe to the point where his true name is the ultimate be all end all question of the universe and this just kills anything interesting regarding him.

Absolutely agree with you there. The Doctor has never been above self-aggrandizement to throw his enemies off balance, but that was pure ego and bluster. This deification of him is just too much. The Doctor isn't powerful, he's just very very smart and doesn't take crap from anybody. He's not a god and for all his travels the universe is an (ostensibly) infinite place so his "name" means nothing except to very few (eg common foes, certain agencies like UNIT etc).

Now, back during the 7th Doctor's time the script editor, Andrew Cartmel, had an over-arching idea that became known as the "Cartmel Masterplan" which, as we found out after the show was cancelled) followed the premise that the Doctor wasn't just a Timelord, but was there at the beginning of the Timelords with Rassilon and Omega, he was one of the founding powers of what created the Timelords, the third in the first triumvirate as it were.
Nothing ever came of that, but seeds of it were dropped during McCoy's time as the Doctor. Now it's close to godhood but nowhere near what RTD and Moffat have done with the character.

That godhood status has got to drop off as once you've really started down that path it's hard to get off of it and despite his power, the Doctor has never been a "Gary Stu" (ie perfect, flawless, infallible) character, but they're heading that way very quickly.

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11 does rely way way too much on the screwdriver, and it seems every episode it becomes more of a magic wand then a tool.

This finally started to piss me off in The Rings of Akhaten where he literally got into a harry potter style wand battle with the guardians in the tomb.

Totally. Like I said before, pull a 5th Doctor and break the sonic and never get around to repairing it. Peter Davison thought the Doctor had become too reliant on it previously and thought it was too much of a crutch.
Now it's the Doctor's brain and it's like they use it so much to sell more toys or something.

I realise that in the new 1 hour per episode format there is less time than there used to be for procedural problem solving (as it was when each story was 4-6 half-hour episodes) and so a few shortcuts need to be taken, but it's gotten farcically out of hand; it has become parody.

[Immitis]

Absolutely agree with you there. The Doctor has never been above self-aggrandizement to throw his enemies off balance, but that was pure ego and bluster. This deification of him is just too much. The Doctor isn't powerful, he's just very very smart and doesn't take crap from anybody. He's not a god and for all his travels the universe is an (ostensibly) infinite place so his "name" means nothing except to very few (eg common foes, certain agencies like UNIT etc).

Now, back during the 7th Doctor's time the script editor, Andrew Cartmel, had an over-arching idea that became known as the "Cartmel Masterplan" which, as we found out after the show was cancelled) followed the premise that the Doctor wasn't just a Timelord, but was there at the beginning of the Timelords with Rassilon and Omega, he was one of the founding powers of what created the Timelords, the third in the first triumvirate as it were.
Nothing ever came of that, but seeds of it were dropped during McCoy's time as the Doctor. Now it's close to godhood but nowhere near what RTD and Moffat have done with the character.

That godhood status has got to drop off as once you've really started down that path it's hard to get off of it and despite his power, the Doctor has never been a "Gary Stu" (ie perfect, flawless, infallible) character, but they're heading that way very quickly.

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Totally. Like I said before, pull a 5th Doctor and break the sonic and never get around to repairing it. Peter Davison thought the Doctor had become too reliant on it previously and thought it was too much of a crutch.
Now it's the Doctor's brain and it's like they use it so much to sell more toys or something.

I realise that in the new 1 hour per episode format there is less time than there used to be for procedural problem solving (as it was when each story was 4-6 half-hour episodes) and so a few shortcuts need to be taken, but it's gotten farcically out of hand; it has become parody.

yeah but you have to remember that back in the classic series he was just this one guy who was breaking a few rules in an entire species with universe bending powers and time bending bendyness things lol.

i think you would need to blame rtd for making the doctor a "god" with the timewar. because once you are the last of your species, a species that was so powerful they nearly destroyed the entire multiverse, and not only that but you destroyed that species and the other most powerful species in the universe in one fell swoop and then continued to do that to other lesser species throughout the universe its only a matter of time before that happens.

its not like the universe is dumb or the doctor only travels to the distant past,odds are people would know something of him but the way the doctor operates he becomes like a myth, to some a god who can save the day to some the boogey man. alot of people dont even believe he exists but when he shows up somebody somewhere is scared because whether we want to admit it or not the doctor is pretty much a god.

he can time travel, he appears to normal people to be immortal, its been shown that very few people were ever able to replicate regenerations so he likely seems like magic to alot of people. and theres all these stories and tales about him destroying entire empires.

and i think moffat knows this, hes slowly having the doctor erase himself from the universe, the daleks dont even remember him anymore.
a big point of series 7 is that no one except people in the distant future (in the doctors timeline) know who he is besides his friends and the great intelligence and the people in the future are likely the silence and if moffat carries out his word all of that or atleast the parts from smiths time will be wrapped up in the next 2 or 3 episodes (past two doctors both got two parters for their last episode so it might be 2 might be 3)

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While I do agree with some of the things in that post Immitis... I also agree with the first comment . Who cares WHY they like the show, if people tune in every week and enjoy?

I've noticed a... disturbing trend recently, now thay Geek is the new cool, people seem to take it upon themselves to become the arbiters of Geekdom and deride anyone who doesn't match up to their imagined standards. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they've not gone for a young guy for 12, if you scroll back through this very thread you'll see me say just that many times. This however is nothing to do with weeding out the "True" fans from those who are just into it for "cute guys in bowties", this is because I think it'll take the show in a darker, more serious direction that has less to do with the Doctor/His fans than it has to do with the writer/directors.

So while I agree that this MIGHT lose the show a few of the more low end fans (don't forget when Matt Smith first started he wasn't exactly a teen Icon, people thought he looked wierd, it was only after they got used to him that the obsession began), I don't think it's a bit fucking wrong to refer to Capaldi as "Chemotherapy" for the show, in some way infering that people who tune in for reasons other than your own are a cancer to the show(need I remind you it doesn't matter WHY they tune in, the more people that tune in the bigger the show gets, the better for all involved).

I have to say that video in the link is brilliant though

while i dont care if they watch the show for that reason, it iritates me when those people try to argue about what the show should or shouldnt do and try to pretend they are the biggest who fans in the world. if they just watched the show and kept their mouths shut it would be fine.

for example i cannot count the amount of times every companion that ive heard "the doctor needs to fall in love with her" or again all the people saying they arent gonna watch doctor who anymore because capaldi is "old" and "ugly" although i find it funny since alot of the people i personally know actually think hes good looking.


i dont mind if they watch the show, and maybe just maybe by watching it they will appreciate it for more than eye candy, what i mind is when they start trying to influence the show to appeal to their demographic instead of just watching one of the many shows that already does. and thats not to say i dislike the romance, i actually like a little bit of it i personally ship 10 and rose and 11 and clara but thats because those romances fit and the romance in the show (well 10 and rose started to become way to focused on it) tended to not be a huge focus it was a side story or a behind the scenes thing that wasnt right in your face all the time

[Shockeye]

Well, he *was* erasing himself then suddenly he's all centre of the universe and everybody knows him again. But who knows, the Great Intelligence didn't recognise him and they go back a long way.

its not like the universe is dumb or the doctor only travels to the distant past,odds are people would know something of him but the way the doctor operates he becomes like a myth, to some a god who can save the day to some the boogey man. alot of people dont even believe he exists but when he shows up somebody somewhere is scared because whether we want to admit it or not the doctor is pretty much a god

No, he's not a god, and the universe(s) are limitless, made exponentially so by his use of time travel and ability to access dimensional travel. He can romp around for a millennia and only touch a fraction of all of space and time. He should be a legend on Earth as that makes sense given the amount of time spent there, however.

The Timelords aren't a species, but a select culture of Gallifreyans, made up of those with the mental capacity to be elevated or are more "evolved" than their peers. Gallifrey is the home and seat of the Timelords but Gallifreyans are not Timelords by default.

There are also more powerful beings in existence than the Doctor and Timelords as well, so his power really isn't all that astounding. He's just very smart, very brave and very determined. He totally has a reputation amongst some peoples (Daleks, Cybermen, Silurians, Humans, Sontarans) and has established relationships with other cultures or powers (the Court of Peladon, the government of Karfel and others) but really, his presence isn't omnipresent.

[apepi]

Well, he *was* erasing himself then suddenly he's all centre of the universe and everybody knows him again. But who knows, the Great Intelligence didn't recognise him and they go back a long way.



No, he's not a god, and the universe(s) are limitless, made exponentially so by his use of time travel and ability to access dimensional travel. He can romp around for a millennia and only touch a fraction of all of space and time. He should be a legend on Earth as that makes sense given the amount of time spent there, however.

The Timelords aren't a species, but a select culture of Gallifreyans, made up of those with the mental capacity to be elevated or are more "evolved" than their peers. Gallifrey is the home and seat of the Timelords but Gallifreyans are not Timelords by default.

There are also more powerful beings in existence than the Doctor and Timelords as well, so his power really isn't all that astounding. He's just very smart, very brave and very determined. He totally has a reputation amongst some peoples (Daleks, Cybermen, Silurians, Humans, Sontarans) and has established relationships with other cultures or powers (the Court of Peladon, the government of Karfel and others) but really, his presence isn't omnipresent.

Depends on what you believe is a god. Would a human be a god compared to an ant? And you are false about him not being able to be omnipresent, he has the power of time, he can be everywhere as long as he has a huge lifespan. I think it is much more important for a god to have omniscience, not omnipresence.

i think you would need to blame rtd for making the doctor a "god" with the timewar. because once you are the last of your species, a species that was so powerful they nearly destroyed the entire multiverse, and not only that but you destroyed that species and the other most powerful species in the universe in one fell swoop and then continued to do that to other lesser species throughout the universe its only a matter of time before that happens.

The first thing I remember him being a good is Water of Mars(my Fav episode btw).

[Shockeye]

Omnipresent means being everywhere, all places, at once, at the exact same time. So no, he's not omnipresent.
As for the human to an ant comparison, I guess that depends on if an ant has a concept of a god, which we of course do not know. Maybe.

And yes, Waters of Mars was superb. I was really wishing the Doctor had made some observation about the way the skin on the humans changed to be in semblance of Ice Warriors though, that was a great opportunity, but the new series is very reluctant for the Doctor to make reference to "classic series" events.

[Immitis]

i need to clarify. i didnt mean the doctor was literally a god. im just saying its easy to see how people could view him that way. and how to many people he would pretty much be a god in their eyes.

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Omnipresent means being everywhere, all places, at once, at the exact same time. So no, he's not omnipresent.
As for the human to an ant comparison, I guess that depends on if an ant has a concept of a god, which we of course do not know. Maybe.

And yes, Waters of Mars was superb. I was really wishing the Doctor had made some observation about the way the skin on the humans changed to be in semblance of Ice Warriors though, that was a great opportunity, but the new series is very reluctant for the Doctor to make reference to "classic series" events.

isnt that just their armor? we didnt see them like this until series 7



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also he did mention the ice warriors in that episode. i think. atleast im pretty sure he did while he was looking at the ice. something about them being the ones who froze the water

[Kiminara]

Sorry guys but i don't like the tv serial doctor who because i hate donna.

everyone dislikes donna in her first episode. in her season, she becomes so much more though. I was sad to see her go

[Shockeye]

isnt that just their armor? we didnt see them like this until series 7

A ridiculous conception and a complete contradiction to established lore. The Ice Warriors, aka Martians, are evolved insects, hence the hissing speech, carapace-like armour designs and pincer-like hands.
Turning them into some slithery snake like thing was absurd. Good episode otherwise and a great characterisation of the Ice Warrior general.

And I guess I'd need to watch Waters again, I don't recall that bit.

[Immitis]

A ridiculous conception and a complete contradiction to established lore. The Ice Warriors, aka Martians, are evolved insects, hence the hissing speech, carapace-like armour designs and pincer-like hands.
Turning them into some slithery snake like thing was absurd. Good episode otherwise and a great characterisation of the Ice Warrior general.

And I guess I'd need to watch Waters again, I don't recall that bit.

pretty sure they have always been lizards in super armor. even in the spin off media where they looked different outside their armor they were still reptiles

[Shockeye]

Hmmm some reading shows you are correct. Though in the Judgement of Iskaar (Big Finish Audio) the Doctor tells his companion Amy that they were evolved from insects.
I will have to see why Iskaar broke from original lore!

[Frozenbeef]

I founds it!

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll...-0.192862&z=17

[Deleted]

Silly brits, can't even draw straight white lines on their roads!

Wibbly-Wobbly lines, thank you.

[Immitis]

I founds it!

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll...-0.192862&z=17

when they first put that on there i spent like 30 minutes just looking around. really feels like you are actually on set

[Sierra85]

What will Capaldi wear as his "staple" doctor clothing?

I am hoping a well dressed suit, maybe a thin tie. I hope he doesn't have facial hair.