[TV] Doctor Who

[MrLachyG]

awesome episode. finally we have the season story arc that was so desperately missing from last season.

[Immitis]

so the main couple prevailing theories online seem to be

1. ruth is an alternate timeline doctor, possibly from the kasavan universe which may or may not be the antimatter universe of omega. (im personally leaning towards this one as this season has been hinting at multiple realities from the get go)

2. this is a regeneration of the doctor that has been wiped from the doctors existence possibly between 2 and 3 when the timelords captured and then exiled the doctor (this doctor cannot be pre hartnell without major retcons as she has a tardis that appears a policebox and we know when hartnell stole the tardis it was the general trashcan appearance and got stuck as a policebox afterwards) they forced the doctor to do something and then wiped their mind and gave them an extra regeneration so they would never notice one was missing. this would also explain why she has no knowledge of owning a sonic screwdriver as the 3rd doctor was the first to have one

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so here is a leak from october

"Most of these things are kind of common knowledge to those following spoiler information, but the next part is major, it concerns Ruth and the Timeless Child (which is what he keeps calling "Child in Time" because he forgot what it was called in The Ghost Monument)

I feel the only thing I can explain without being murdered is the Child in Time. I'm still in shock at the route Chibnall has gone down.
The Child in Time is the Doctor themselves, and is their "first life" per se. As a child, they were unkillable and could regenerate endlessly. Found on an unknown planet, they were taken back to Gallifrey, where their abilities allowed Gallifreyans to become Time Lords. The character "Ruth" is (apparently) an earlier life of the Doctor.
I appreciate this sounds like the Virgin Books from during the hiatus, but believe me when I say all this is true; and if it's anything like how my source explained it, the entire fandom will explode. I'm shocked."

http://www.planetmondas.com/forum/vi...6337&start=580

this seems to accurate now to be fake

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If this leak is true this means the doctor technically isnt even from gallifrey and is actually some proto/true timelord.

this is very the otherish

[Adoxe]

I honestly have no idea what to think, I'm both amazed and worried about what just happened. Hopefully whatever they do from here doesn't completely ruin the show for me, because it would be very easy for them to mess up.

[mvaliz]

so here is a leak from october
[snip]

Oh no no NO they had better not make that Ruth character Doctor #1. Heartnell is always the first!

I hope to goddess that was just sent out as a deliberate red herring or something! >_<

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but last years sales were abysmal. despite the significantly higher ratings compared to Capaldi, the sales of merchandise barely hit 1/2 the sales figures of the capaldi era of merchandise.

BBC doesn't give a spit about "sales" - the show doesn't work on profit motive due to how the Beeb works. Only the outlets like BBC America care about profits because they're a separate entity, and have no pull over past/future of shows.

Secondly, Jodie already spilled the beans that there's another season and that she's continuing on in that one in an interview a couple days ago.

[Immitis]

Oh no no NO they had better not make that Ruth character Doctor #1. Heartnell is always the first!

I hope to goddess that was just sent out as a deliberate red herring or something! >_<

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BBC doesn't give a spit about "sales" - the show doesn't work on profit motive due to how the Beeb works. Only the outlets like BBC America care about profits because they're a separate entity, and have no pull over past/future of shows.

Secondly, Jodie already spilled the beans that there's another season and that she's continuing on in that one in an interview a couple days ago.

from what ive gathered on the leak the timeless child is doctor #1 but ruth is unrelated, she seems to be a previous doctor incarnation but we dont know where from and it seems to be a plotline for next season not this one

[Gallahadd]

If this leak is true this means the doctor technically isnt even from gallifrey and is actually some proto/true timelord.

this is very the otherish

I would fuckin LOVE that. Would also tie in well with the angry sexy bounty hunter later apparently being Gallfreyan, but NOT a Timelord. It could be that her and Ruth were from a SUPER early era of Gallifrey, before they'd totally cracked how to become Timelords.

[Wezmon]

BBC doesn't give a spit about "sales" - the show doesn't work on profit motive due to how the Beeb works. Only the outlets like BBC America care about profits because they're a separate entity, and have no pull over past/future of shows.
.

That's not 100% true, the BBC started BBC worldwide (now BBC studios) with the aim of supplementing the license fee. BBC studios part own BBC America, so there's a definite motivation for extra profitability (just look at how much they made from top gear, £50 million a year from merch). Even without a direct link like DW, if a show is going to sell stuff, the buyer will pay more, which is good for the beeb. Whether thats enough for them to actually make changes I dont know.

[Immitis]

I would fuckin LOVE that. Would also tie in well with the angry sexy bounty hunter later apparently being Gallfreyan, but NOT a Timelord. It could be that her and Ruth were from a SUPER early era of Gallifrey, before they'd totally cracked how to become Timelords.

the timeless child did appear to be a dark skinned girl



maybe the "job" ruth ran away from was being forced to give out regeneration energy to create timelords?

but from the way ruth talked i dont think shes the first incarnation.

its also apparently going around that jodie will be playing both the doctor and the role of the timeless child in the finale.

i think ruth will be a mystery that wont be resolved until next season.

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also theres another rumour going around that episode 6 is sea devils

[Gallahadd]

i think ruth will be a mystery that wont be resolved until next season.

I could see that. I think the ruins of Galifrey will be the big plot, going forward. That will all spill out in the finale, which will tie in with just who/what Ruth is, but won't really resolve anything. Then, NEXT season will be all about dealing with the fallout from Ruth and all her shit.

[MrLachyG]

Oh no no NO they had better not make that Ruth character Doctor #1. Heartnell is always the first!

I hope to goddess that was just sent out as a deliberate red herring or something! >_<

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BBC doesn't give a spit about "sales" - the show doesn't work on profit motive due to how the Beeb works. Only the outlets like BBC America care about profits because they're a separate entity, and have no pull over past/future of shows.

Secondly, Jodie already spilled the beans that there's another season and that she's continuing on in that one in an interview a couple days ago.

I don't think they will make Ruth the First Doctor; because that would make no sense to the established lore. Given how handy Ruth was with a gun maybe she is in between the 8th Doc and the War Doc? or she is from an alternate universe and is post War Doctor?

[tmamass]

They won't cancel Doctor Who, it's a massive IP for the BBC. It's so big it doesn't need to be well written to fulfil it's objective: selling merch and toys to the kids and superfans.

sadly the BBC literaly beats his horses to dead just like they do with top gear...

[Immitis]

I don't think they will make Ruth the First Doctor; because that would make no sense to the established lore. Given how handy Ruth was with a gun maybe she is in between the 8th Doc and the War Doc? or she is from an alternate universe and is post War Doctor?

we saw 8 regenerate into the war doctor.

the only regeneration we havent seen onscreen is 2 - 3



which means if ruth is our universes doctor she is either between 2 - 3, or pre hartnell.

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theyve never specified how many regenerations can be given at once. we know obviously they can give more since the master got some and so did 11 but they never have said if they can give out 1, or the standard 12, or however many they wish (we dont even know if the doctor is limited anymore since they havent said how many new ones 11 got)

if ruth is inbetween when the 2nd doctor was captured by gallifrey and forced to regenerate and before we saw the 3rd doctor onscreen then she couldve been given 1 extra and mind wiped.

if the leak is true (which considering ruth does exist and the timeless child is the arc and this was all from before the new series even premiered id say its very likely to be real) then the doctor isnt even a timelord or is the first timelord the gallifreyans gained the ability from.

if the timeless child is a doctor who could regenerate endlessly then we have a situation where unless it gets specified who knows how many doctors exist. assuming they dont pull a cartmell masterplan and have our doctor be a clone/reincarnation of the timeless child ala the other and the looms

this also opens up a can of worms on what the doctor even is? will they explain? or will it be left open ended for future arcs? if the gallifreyans found the doctor and harvested regeneration energy somehow from her then perhaps more of them exist?

im both extremely excited and worried about how this will play out. it will either be brilliant or be considered one of the worst changes in whos history since the half human debacle

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Jo Martin, who will play the second female Time Lord, is the real thing, according to Doctor Who show-runner Chris Chibnall.

Fans were astounded last night when a new Doctor arrived to compete with Jodie Whittaker's version, even bringing her own Tardis.

Chibnall said that Martin, who becomes the first black actor in the iconic role, is not playing a fake or phoney version.

“The important thing to say is – she is definitively the Doctor,” he explained. “There's not a sort of parallel universe going on, there's no tricks.

"Jo Martin is the Doctor, that's why we gave her the credit at the end which all new Doctors have the first time you see them. John Hurt got that credit.”

It is not clear where Martin's version, whose human name in the plot is Ruth Clayton, fits into the history of the 13 Doctors.

But fans are guessing that she could possibly sit between Patrick Troughton and Jon Pertwee, because she did not recognise the sonic screwdriver but did have a police box TARDIS, which was invented by William Hartnell's first Doctor.

When she was invited to audition, Martin wasn't told it was for Doctor Who. “We called her in and she read for it – with secret pages that didn't mention that it was the Doctor,” Chibnall laughed.

“But she's a massive fan of the show and I think she guessed. I had to ring her up and tell her and she was overwhelmed and thrilled. A lot of her family are fans and she kept that secret brilliantly for so long – nobody knew. We filmed it in the middle of last year.”

He said her casting was the idea of director Nida Mazoor. “She was the best person for the job, it was a great suggestion, she's got a brilliant combination of humour and warmth and wit and softness and steel. She's a really exciting Doctor.”

Chibnall said viewers would find out more about the previously unknown Doctor, who arrived with her own 1970s version of the TARDIS, over time.

“There will be answers to some of these mysteries this series. But as ever with Doctor Who, answers often reveal new questions. It's all very deliberate.”

He said that he was not scared by those who said he should not meddle with the so-called Whoniverse.

“We’re telling an ongoing story and there are plenty of things in Doctor Who that change all the time but I’m very aware of the history and very aware of the continuity.

"It’s a delightful thing.

"But stories are ongoing pieces of fiction. They develop and evolve. My job is to be bold with the storytelling and have fun.”

Fans were also thrilled to see Captain Jack Harkness make his return during Fugitive of the Judoon, in which he came face to face with the companions but not with the Doctor herself.

Chibnall hinted he wouldn't be seen again until next year: “You won't see him again this series, I can categorically tell you that.

"But who knows when he might pop up again? We love Captain Jack, we love John Barrowman.

"I hope that won't be his last appearance and that at some point he gets to meet the 13th Doctor."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/...octor-21373790

[mvaliz]

“The important thing to say is – she is definitively the Doctor,” he explained. “There's not a sort of parallel universe going on, there's no tricks.

Yeah, I'm calling BS on Chibnall's statement right there. It reeks to me of when the Avengers:Endgame directors said "They're officially dead, get used to it!" when asked if they're comming back in part 2 of Endgame.

There's no way... NO way... I'm accepting that Heartnell wasn't Doc 1. After 60 years, you don't arbitrarily change something like that because "it's bold"... Saying "It's bold" is an excuse to arbitrarily break a rule that never needed to be broken just for shock value, not for narrative value.

Yeah, I'm a bit worried to say the least now. >_<

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But fans are guessing that she could possibly sit between Patrick Troughton and Jon Pertwee, because she did not recognise the sonic screwdriver but did have a police box TARDIS, which was invented by William Hartnell's first Doctor.

That's just wrong. The 2nd Doctor was the first to use the Sonic Screwdriver in "Fury From the Deep" and later again in his final story "The War Games".

Also, the TARDIS wasn't "invented" by Doc 1 - that was stemmed from a debated line in him discussing a particular device installed in the TARDIS console where he said something like "Ever since I built it"... debating on weither he was talking about the device itself or the TARDIS. There was no clear definition.

Also it throws off all that Clara nonsense as she supposedly directed Doc 1 to take the TARDIS that clearly didn't have a Police Box form.

Lastly, the Chameleon Circuit broke between the first episode "Unearthly Child" and whatever previous adventure they were on. The First Doctor exclaimed that the TARDIS didn't change its form when arriving in the Stone Age, saying to himself worryingly "Why is it still a Police Box??". Cannonically it wasn't a PB (that we know of) before then and the Chameleon Circuit was working fine up to that point.

[Immitis]

Yeah, I'm calling BS on Chibnall's statement right there. It reeks to me of when the Avengers:Endgame directors said "They're officially dead, get used to it!" when asked if they're comming back in part 2 of Endgame.

There's no way... NO way... I'm accepting that Heartnell wasn't Doc 1. After 60 years, you don't arbitrarily change something like that because "it's bold"... Saying "It's bold" is an excuse to arbitrarily break a rule that never needed to be broken just for shock value, not for narrative value.

Yeah, I'm a bit worried to say the least now. >_<

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That's just wrong. The 2nd Doctor was the first to use the Sonic Screwdriver in "Fury From the Deep" and later again in his final story "The War Games".

Also, the TARDIS wasn't "invented" by Doc 1 - that was stemmed from a debated line in him discussing a particular device installed in the TARDIS console where he said something like "Ever since I built it"... debating on weither he was talking about the device itself or the TARDIS. There was no clear definition.

Also it throws off all that Clara nonsense as she supposedly directed Doc 1 to take the TARDIS that clearly didn't have a Police Box form.

Lastly, the Chameleon Circuit broke between the first episode "Unearthly Child" and whatever previous adventure they were on. The First Doctor exclaimed that the TARDIS didn't change its form when arriving in the Stone Age, saying to himself worryingly "Why is it still a Police Box??". Cannonically it wasn't a PB (that we know of) before then and the Chameleon Circuit was working fine up to that point.

looking online it seems the first and 2nd doctor did use a sonic screwdriver a couple times but it was only in a couple episodes but it wasnt called a sonic screwdriver until the 3rd doctor and wasnt something he used regularly or carried with him until then.

still im leaning towards ruth being between 2 and 3.

the sonic i could see being overlooked but i very much doubt chibnall would just choose to retcon the tardis not looking like a policebox pre 1 since its been well established even in modern who that it originally looked like the standard tin can.

unless he pulls some sort of "the original doctor kept it as a policebox and the tardis remembered and changed back after he stole it again" or something convoluted like that or "it looks like that because ruth originally started hiding on earth in the 60s"

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assuming chibbs isnt pulling a moffat then thats the only two spots she can be from.

granted if the timeless child is the doctor then i guess its a moot point. either way it seems were getting some sort of pre hartnell incarnation

[mvaliz]

looking online it seems the first and 2nd doctor did use a sonic screwdriver a couple times but it was only in a couple episodes but it wasnt called a sonic screwdriver until the 3rd doctor and wasnt something he used regularly or carried with him until then.

Oh, oh OH you just said this to the WRONG guy my friend! ;P (or maybe I'm the right guy - I've been a rather unhealthy-obsessed fan of the show for over 40 years, since my childhood - So I know a thing or two first-hand! ;P)

First off, watch the very first 6 seconds of this clip from "The War Games". Right here the 2nd Doctor calls it a "Sonic Screwdriver". The clip of him calling it a SS in Fury from the Deep only exists in audio since it's one of those videos that was sadly destroyed by the Beeb. >_<



Secondly, the Third Doctor used it in practically EVERY episode. Shit, the guy was the sole reason the SS became so popular. :P

IRT the TARDIS - yeah, that's why the only way I can accept the "Ruth" Doctor is if she's from some sort of alternate timeline. Hell, it's the reason I thought she was originally and didn't think twice about that because of all the inconsistencies.

[Immitis]

honestly i think im more upset about jack not coming back this series than the ruth doctor.

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looking more into the leak it seems the same leak said dhawan was the master

"If you believe me, I have only four clues. Not sure I want to get C&Ded by The BBC."

1 "Cyber Zealot"

2 "Death Particle"

3 "The Master and Waris Hussein"

4 "Ruth and the Timeless Child"

"The Timeless Child is the Doctor themselves, and is their "first life" per se. As a child, they were unkillable and could regenerate endlessly. Found on an unknown planet, they were taken back to Gallifrey, where their abilities allowed Gallifreyans to become Time Lords. The character "Ruth" is (apparently) an earlier life of the Doctor."

everything has been too accurate for me to believe its fake at this point.

[kamuimac]

so the main couple prevailing theories online seem to be

1. ruth is an alternate timeline doctor, possibly from the kasavan universe which may or may not be the antimatter universe of omega. (im personally leaning towards this one as this season has been hinting at multiple realities from the get go)

2. this is a regeneration of the doctor that has been wiped from the doctors existence possibly between 2 and 3 when the timelords captured and then exiled the doctor (this doctor cannot be pre hartnell without major retcons as she has a tardis that appears a policebox and we know when hartnell stole the tardis it was the general trashcan appearance and got stuck as a policebox afterwards) they forced the doctor to do something and then wiped their mind and gave them an extra regeneration so they would never notice one was missing. this would also explain why she has no knowledge of owning a sonic screwdriver as the 3rd doctor was the first to have one

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so here is a leak from october

"Most of these things are kind of common knowledge to those following spoiler information, but the next part is major, it concerns Ruth and the Timeless Child (which is what he keeps calling "Child in Time" because he forgot what it was called in The Ghost Monument)

I feel the only thing I can explain without being murdered is the Child in Time. I'm still in shock at the route Chibnall has gone down.
The Child in Time is the Doctor themselves, and is their "first life" per se. As a child, they were unkillable and could regenerate endlessly. Found on an unknown planet, they were taken back to Gallifrey, where their abilities allowed Gallifreyans to become Time Lords. The character "Ruth" is (apparently) an earlier life of the Doctor.
I appreciate this sounds like the Virgin Books from during the hiatus, but believe me when I say all this is true; and if it's anything like how my source explained it, the entire fandom will explode. I'm shocked."

http://www.planetmondas.com/forum/vi...6337&start=580

this seems to accurate now to be fake

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If this leak is true this means the doctor technically isnt even from gallifrey and is actually some proto/true timelord.

this is very the otherish

if they are really going this route this will most likely be such a wasted potential due to them destroying really good stories with SJW bs and woke propaganda :/

[Gallahadd]

if they are really going this route this will most likely be such a wasted potential due to them destroying really good stories with SJW bs and woke propaganda :/

A: did you REALLY need to quote the whole post, just to add on line?

B: I see no propaganda anywhere in that theory? What's throwing you off?

[Sunseeker]

Just saw Fugitive, omg gotta second all the feelings about Ruth being the Doctor we need AND the Doctor we want. It really was the side-by-side acting between Jo and Jodie (did they do that on purpose? lol) that really put into perspective how disappointing Jodie is as the Doctor. And to be fair, that may simply be poor writing, as I've been pretty disappointed with that too these last two seasons.

Really wish this hadn't been "Judoon Platoon on the Moon: Do-Over" though. Aside from the double Doctor reveal and Gat (who was also pretty awesome) it was basically Martha's intro episode all over again. And Martha was by far a superior companion (maybe not to Graham tho, he's got "older funnier Rory" written all over him) and Smith was definitely a better Doctor. Was very 50/50 about Jack coming back, I like Jack, but, I dunno, it felt like Jack returning, whatever he was running from, double Doctor and Gat would have been a good enough episode on it's own.

Totes down for some Cyberman though!

Also in RE: the "leak" above, wouldn't it just be simpler to say the Ruth Doctor is just a future doctor who forgot about Jodie for "reasons"? Though, honestly I don't care if the answer gets us at least a one season of Ruth Doctor.

[Immitis]

Also in RE: the "leak" above, wouldn't it just be simpler to say the Ruth Doctor is just a future doctor who forgot about Jodie for "reasons"? Though, honestly I don't care if the answer gets us at least a one season of Ruth Doctor.

well the leak implies we dont find out this series where ruth actually comes from since it says shes "apparently" a past doctor which is all we really know about her from this episode. I fully believe that whatever ruth is its seperate from the timeless child arc, this whole episode seems to be setting up future hooks for next series, especially since jack isnt returning this series either.

since chibbs only said we would get "some" answers this series but also more questions.

I dont think shes a future doctor since her tardis is definitely made to look like the older tardis interior, even her exterior uses the model they built for twice upon a time instead of the modern policebox. if we assume jodie follows the the 3 series precedent then next series will be her last, although we also have the 60th anniversary coming up in a few years in 2023 so who knows?

i also think if ruth were a future doctor they would announce that.

all we can really do is wait but i think ultimately ruths only main connection with this series arc is to lay the groundwork of us thinking the doctors past is more unknown then we thought.

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its interesting that this is the 3rd time someone in charge of the show has seemingly planned pre hartnell doctors.

morbius being the first
then the cartmell masterplan before who got cancelled during the 7th doctor arc
and now the timeless child/ jo doc
it seems like this time it will actually get canonized though