[Priest] PvE Shadow Guide (by Newnoise)

[Naturalistlol]

Speaking of professions, did cata equalize the dps gains from professions or is there a profession that gives a bigger bonus than the rest?

Pretty sure LW is way out ahead atm giving 130 intel on bracers rather than the other max of 65(?) haste. The others are just a +80 or +81 intel over norm. So it'd be 50 int vs 65 haste.

[Redwinds]

Hey all,

I realize that there might be a few more of these out there but i waned to see if there was anything else i can do to improve my dps.

armory link:
please look up redwinds on skullcrusher (guild: Wrath)
(mmo champ won't let me post links yet.)

My gems need to be fixed but i noticed last night that the chaotic skyflare and shadowspirit all have to have more blue then red gems, would you all still recommend using it or switching to the 2 percent mana meta instead?

my enchants are almost there, i need to get the helm enchant but the rest should be set.

my rotation is this:
start off with: VT, SW:P, DP, then hit SW for the mana regen and then mind blast and mind flay till mind blast is up again.

wash rinse repeat.
i do try to keep SW on cooldown due to the mana regen it gives, right now on extended boss fights i still run out of mana and this keeps my mana up between shadow fiends and archangel usage.

usually i blow my shadowfiend, herb haste skill and archangel either at the beginning of the fight to get more uses out of them or in the middle right before heroism is cast depending on how the boss fight is going and i try to get archangel in after i reapply my dots so that everything hits harder and i don't loss out on the dps.

any tips or changes you would make to this?

right now i am clocking about 12k-16 k dps depending on raid encounter.

Thanks
Redwinds

[The1337Troll]

you have only reforged into spirit for the hit which you are already over. you also reforged the wrong stats currently haste is our best secondary stat followed by crit and then mastery. one last thing you should do is get better trinkets. The hit trinket is terrible try the new darkmoon card or the trinket from Blackrock caverns.

[PhXn]

Actually ------>> http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...w-Priest-Guide


really nice guide

ps

i really miss a few things, like using ur orbs..... why use sf at start?

ps 2:

after AA try an sw

[Redwinds]

Thank you for the advice!

Zadoro:

The trinket is from our BiS list but i see your point, hit and proc spellpower is worse then int and proc haste.
having said that it is part of my max hit cap item setup so i would have to figure out how to replace it and keep hit capped.

As for my reforging, the logic behind reforging spirit is to hit my hit cap. i have only reforged crit and mastery and only enough to hit 1742 hit cap.

the rest of the stats i left alone because almost all of my gear has haste on it. i could probobly reforge a few crit into haste or mastery into haste though.

angelz:
i will reread the thread.

I use SF at start for the extra dps, by the time i need mana SF is back up again. usually 2-3 minutes into the encounter it comes back up.

I have been doing that and it's huge on some bosses, at other times i can't seem to time it correctly. (need to improve there)

[Phonebill]

really nice guide

ps

i really miss a few things, like using ur orbs..... why use sf at start?

ps 2:

after AA try an sw

Probably cause of the Sin and Punishment talent. You use Mind Flay quite a lot and when it crits you decrease the CD of your SF with 10 sec. Overall it shouldn't take long before your SF is ready again.

[Arlee]

My gems need to be fixed but i noticed last night that the chaotic skyflare and shadowspirit all have to have more blue then red gems, would you all still recommend using it or switching to the 2 percent mana meta instead?

Didn't see anyone respond to this so I figured I would toss in my 2 cents. Personally I have switched to the 54int/2% mana meta instead of the chaotic one. just makes more sense for right now and the net benefit of the chaotic vs what you lose to get more blue than red (note you can't use purple to get over that cap since it counts as red and blue so it doesn't get you more blue than red).

[PhXn]

Probably cause of the Sin and Punishment talent. You use Mind Flay quite a lot and when it crits you decrease the CD of your SF with 10 sec. Overall it shouldn't take long before your SF is ready again.

gonna chechk that out then, i always wait till second dots up. AA , sf sw

[samuraituretsky]

Why is Hit slightly more valuable than Spirit on the stat comparison? Wouldn't it be the other way around?

[Xelestial]

My biggest question is what do we do with Heroism/Bloodlust/etc? Just start nuking or what? I personally change it up based on my feelings at the time but this isn't how WoW is usually supposed to be played. Sorry if it was said before I just am short on time.

I take all other aspects of Shadow Priest guides at this point with a grain of salt as should everyone unless people have the mathto back it up. And even then things will change per player. They give you a good idea of where to go but I haven't seen anything written in stone yet.

No idea why hit is more valuable than Spirit since Spirit is Hit point per point and at least Spirit will help you when you are out of combat.

[UunaPriest]

My understanding is that any DoT duration does have it's duration reduced up until the point it reaches the level for another tick to be added. What this means (in very simple terms) is that VT will start at 15 sec duration, slowly be reduced to 12 sec and when enough haste is reached for another tick it will move back to 15 sec. This is to ensure that haste still benefits DoT spells in somewhat of a linear sense rather than just specific clumps of rating.

From my testing this is not the case. The difference seems to be added into the delay before the first tick, and the last tick always lands at the end of VT. For testing I used a lvl60 dummy and started naked (5% haste buff from mind quickening) and slowly added gear up to my current gear and waited for hurricane+witching hour = 30% haste total.
Every VT was 15 seconds, and every VT ticked the final tick at the end of VT.

[Arlee]

From my testing this is not the case. The difference seems to be added into the delay before the first tick, and the last tick always lands at the end of VT. For testing I used a lvl60 dummy and started naked (5% haste buff from mind quickening) and slowly added gear up to my current gear and waited for hurricane+witching hour = 30% haste total.
Every VT was 15 seconds, and every VT ticked the final tick at the end of VT.

This is correct. haste does not affect the duration of dots at all.

Also.. is there anyway for this thread to be stickied please?

[Xelestial]

Also want to take the time to say thanks for the guide, it did cover a few things most guides don't, like Dark Intent.

However, I still would like to know regarding Heroism if MS > MS > MB spam or some variation of it with Mind Flay and SW: Death is optimal. Basically, what do you do with a Heroism other than Dark Archangel, and Shadowfiend? Heroism does not increase DoT ticking time I believe, so do we still keep up DoTs or just spam direct damage spells, and if so, what direct damage spells? I have my own ideas about this, but I think these are questions that need to be answered.

I think this would be a great addition to this guide as so far I have not seen a single guide discuss it and having been a Shadow Priest for 3-4 years now, have never really seen anyone discuss it (though previously I never came looking for the info because it was obvious) so how can we expect new Shadow Priests to know?

[Arlee]

I am fairly certain that Heroism, Bloodlust, and Time Warp do affect your dots because they are considered haste effects. However, your dots wouldn't get that benefit unless you recast them after the bloodlust (etc) is cast.

[New]

Speaking of professions, did cata equalize the dps gains from professions or is there a profession that gives a bigger bonus than the rest?

Leather Working will net you about 15 Intellect worth of stat gain over most professions. Also, Tailoring provides you ~94 Intellect bonus over other professions. Other than those two, they are mostly the same across the board with some of the Engineering enchants up to your own personal analysis.

Why is Hit slightly more valuable than Spirit on the stat comparison? Wouldn't it be the other way around?

Its just a product of how a number of different factors come together when statistically analyzing information data sets and the profiles used to determine them. For all intensive purposes Hit = Spirit in DPS, but the extra utility of Spirit for out of combat regen and offspec healing makes it better when you need to make a choice.

From my testing this is not the case. The difference seems to be added into the delay before the first tick, and the last tick always lands at the end of VT. For testing I used a lvl60 dummy and started naked (5% haste buff from mind quickening) and slowly added gear up to my current gear and waited for hurricane+witching hour = 30% haste total.
Every VT was 15 seconds, and every VT ticked the final tick at the end of VT.

Perhaps my tests were flawed but I see a reduction in the spell duration with varying levels of Haste doing tests similar to what you were doing. I'm curious where the difference is here.

Also want to take the time to say thanks for the guide, it did cover a few things most guides don't, like Dark Intent.

However, I still would like to know regarding Heroism if MS > MS > MB spam or some variation of it with Mind Flay and SW: Death is optimal. Basically, what do you do with a Heroism other than Dark Archangel, and Shadowfiend? Heroism does not increase DoT ticking time I believe, so do we still keep up DoTs or just spam direct damage spells, and if so, what direct damage spells? I have my own ideas about this, but I think these are questions that need to be answered.

I think this would be a great addition to this guide as so far I have not seen a single guide discuss it and having been a Shadow Priest for 3-4 years now, have never really seen anyone discuss it (though previously I never came looking for the info because it was obvious) so how can we expect new Shadow Priests to know?

Since Heroism/Blood Lust does affect the number of ticks you get on your DOTs, it would be wise to continue with your normal priority cast system. This is easily tested by finding out how many DOT ticks you get normally, then have a hero popped by a friend, and cast your DOTs again and see the difference. Note: DOTs already on the target will not be updated with additional ticks in real time with Heroism/Blood Lust.

It has been debated before whether or not to recast your DOTs at the start of Heroism/Blood Lust and then again at the end to get the biggest bonus to your DOTs. Personally, I keep doing my normal rotation through Heroism/Blood Lust but I cannot back this up with pure numbers.

As for pure math behind normal casting versus Mind Spike spam, I do not have it. This is an assumption based on the math of the normal spell priority > Mind Spike + Mind Blast spam, and the logic that the increased casting speed in one example is the same across both results. Another thing to factor in with Mind Spike spam during Heroism/Blood Lust is that Mind Spike will easily become GCD capped depending on your level of Haste prior to Heroism/Blood Lust.

[Xelestial]

Since Heroism/Blood Lust does affect the number of ticks you get on your DOTs, it would be wise to continue with your normal priority cast system. This is easily tested by finding out how many DOT ticks you get normally, then have a hero popped by a friend, and cast your DOTs again and see the difference. Note: DOTs already on the target will not be updated with additional ticks in real time with Heroism/Blood Lust.

It has been debated before whether or not to recast your DOTs at the start of Heroism/Blood Lust and then again at the end to get the biggest bonus to your DOTs. Personally, I keep doing my normal rotation through Heroism/Blood Lust but I cannot back this up with pure numbers.

As for pure math behind normal casting versus Mind Spike spam, I do not have it. This is an assumption based on the math of the normal spell priority > Mind Spike + Mind Blast spam, and the logic that the increased casting speed in one example is the same across both results. Another thing to factor in with Mind Spike spam during Heroism/Blood Lust is that Mind Spike will easily become GCD capped depending on your level of Haste prior to Heroism/Blood Lust.

I used to think it increased DoT ticks and then my husband pointed out the tooltip:

"Increases melee, ranged, and spell casting speed by 30% for all party and raid members. Lasts 40 sec."

Of course you're right, I should just try it for myself later with the effect to be sure one way or another. I used to just recast DoTS at the beginning and recast DoTs at the end but the numbers just never seemed to change that much (haven't tested this since WoTLK though).

Is there a way to simulate normal rotation vs. Mind Spike/MB spam in Simcraft? I haven't used it in a long time, so I don't remember.

I had been testing it out in Heroics/old raids and got some nice numbers doing Mind Spike, Mind Spike, instant MB (good point about GCD cap though I'm not sure how much it matters) but over time it seems to...drop off, if that makes any sense. At least that is what I'm experiencing. I understand you don't have the math for this, but if you or anyone else (when I get my computer up and running later I could do it myself) could just do some field testing it may provide us with some knowledge about which is ultimately better (or is it perhaps a combination of the two?)

[zenkai]

I would never recommend a MSP spam for 2 reasons

1. You will deplete your mana ASAP
2. Your MB CD will not be back up after you cast MSP 3X more times, which is a major dps factor with benefit of MSP.

MSP is for burst dmg,

The only way I foresee a MSP spam is if the mob is going to die in less than 10 seconds and your dots are falling off.

[New]

It is so important for people to test things for themselves when they read something. I hope that people reading what I wrote went out and tried to make it work for themselves. It's okay you didn't test it, I just thought I'd explain how to test it to prove the fact (I like being able to verify stuff).

For Simcraft, you would have to talk to some one from the team about that. I will ask a friend of mine who is on the team and ask him if it is possible to write some lines in the priority list to sim what you're talking about. If not though, it's a part of the code and you'd be very hard pressed to find someone to change that for you.

The GCD point will matter because if you're spamming a nuke whose cast time is .9 seconds, and the GCD is locked at 1 second, you potentially lose .1 second of cast time each time (This assumes perfect casting). You will have the same issue with casting your Vampiric Touch and Mind Blast in the normal rotation, but since Mind Flay is probably never going to hit the GCD cap in this expansion, and its ~35-40% of your DPS, you don't have to worry as much about the GCD cap with the normal rotation.

[Redwinds]

does anyone know or have done any research on the meta gems?

3% crit damage increase vs the 2% mana bonus?

i am wondering of the crit damage is worth more then the int bonus from the mana meta gem.

Thanks
Red

[Arlee]

I used to think it increased DoT ticks and then my husband pointed out the tooltip:

"Increases melee, ranged, and spell casting speed by 30% for all party and raid members. Lasts 40 sec."

Of course you're right, I should just try it for myself later with the effect to be sure one way or another. I used to just recast DoTS at the beginning and recast DoTs at the end but the numbers just never seemed to change that much (haven't tested this since WoTLK though).

Is there a way to simulate normal rotation vs. Mind Spike/MB spam in Simcraft? I haven't used it in a long time, so I don't remember.

I had been testing it out in Heroics/old raids and got some nice numbers doing Mind Spike, Mind Spike, instant MB (good point about GCD cap though I'm not sure how much it matters) but over time it seems to...drop off, if that makes any sense. At least that is what I'm experiencing. I understand you don't have the math for this, but if you or anyone else (when I get my computer up and running later I could do it myself) could just do some field testing it may provide us with some knowledge about which is ultimately better (or is it perhaps a combination of the two?)

Tooltips are often not exactly good to go on for spell effects.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=2825

Under spell details, effect #3 it clearly says that this is considered a haste effect. Therefore it does affect dots. Also in Blizz's description of time warp they say:

[Time Warp] (level 85): Grants a passive Haste effect much like [Bloodlust] or [Heroism] to party or raid members. Time Warp will be exclusive with Bloodlust and Heroism, meaning you can’t benefit from both if you’ve got the Exhaustion debuff, though the movement-speed increase will still work even when under the effects of Exhaustion.

Which makes it pretty clear they view and treat it like a haste effect. Now if that bonus is enough to get you to that extra tick or not prob has a lot to do with how much haste you currently have.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Mage