Fire Luck based spec?

[Aunor]

Hi guys, now i will clarify a bit, oki so basicly my dps when my crit is working is realy good i managed to fix it by reading forums so now it is rarely bellow 16-17 k dps when everything is fine i made 30 k dps on halfus and 27 k on robot council thingy , i realise that halfus is due to aoe and robot council is due to boost from pools and spellsteal but the thing is, obviously when we tried halfus few times my dps varied so badly that it was just insane, what hapened few times is when we released the whelps my impact woudnt procc and i coudnt do decent aoe so instead of 30 k i did 16-17 k witch is ok but still the diference between 30 k and 17 k is just huge, and for what for missing 1 impact procc? also the same thing on maloriak when my impact procc i do 3,4 milion dmg on adds , it procced 3 times when we aoe them, but when it didnt procced a single time i did 800 k. so thats about aoe i will now cover the singletarget dps it is lituraly the same somethimes when i get 16-18 pyro proccs during the single target encounter i make 18-20 k dps in 25 man, but when i dont crit much and my pyro doesent procc much , when it proccs 1-2-3 times during the whole fight i make 10,5-11,5 k dps oposed to 18 k when my crit is working.

I will leave my armory and stats and ask a few questions after :

SP : 5711 Unbuffed,
Haste 5,57 Unbuffed
Crit : 24,07 Unbuffed
Hit : 17 % Unbuffed

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../ornius/simple

I realise i have few crit sockets here and there witch some will not agree with 1-2 but even if they are socketed intelect it woudnt change the fact of the huge DPS difference when ur proccs dont come in time.

Now the questions :

Does anyone have the same problems when aoeing as me and how can we mitigate these things when unlucky with impact, i do put 3 x lb and spam Blastwave. but its still a huge dps loss compared to impact procc. 5-8-10 k dps difference.

Also on single target when i get 2-3 pyro proccs during the whole 8 min fight? is there a way of trying to reduce dps loss? or am i doing somthaing wrong or everyone have the same problem?

Do i need to push for intelect more mybie with some int trinket and if my crit is not working to get at least higher hits? U tell me?

Dont be shy to leave ur opinion

Best regards :

Ornius / Aunor Frostmane EU

[Deleted]

I found that good way to fish Impact procs is to spam Flamestrike. Other than that there's nothing you can't do. RNG is RNG.

[Statix]

The first part of your post sucks to read. Use .'s please.

The base cast time of Fireball used to be 3.5 seconds, which could be lowered to 3 seconds with talents. At some point, the Fireball glyph lowered the cast time of Fireball by 0.15 seconds (which comes down to 5% haste; (3/100)x5=0.15) instead of 5% crit. Then, at the end of WotLK, as the new talents were introduced, the base cast time of Fireball was lowered to 2.5 seconds.

To compensate for this change, they also changed Pyroblast!. It would proc less, but you would cast far more Fireballs. At the end of WotLK, I went from critting 50% of my Fireballs to 25%. A lot less Pyroblast! procs, but my DPS increased. Mana wasn't an issue due to gear. You couldn't really see the effects of the change because you had insane stats. Now, as your stats are low, you hardly crit and your Fireball casts are 2.25-2.37 (opposed to 1.7-1.8 in WotLK). Not to mention that no crits means no 30% refund.

No more Fire crit chance increase either.

I feel this changed Fire too much. It's just a shadow of what it once was. Fire was fun because you had to plan your Pyroblasts, you had to manage them. Now, I go entire fights without a Pyroblast proc, wasting Combustion in the process... Even in WotLK I thought you didn't get enough Pyroblast! procs (Our DPS was fine, but that was simply because you could do a lot more Fireballs; and even that is gone now, not because you'd crit more).

@ Haldurion: I don't see have you afford to spam Flamestrike while it costs 5k mana.

[rad586]

You think fire is luck based spec ? Ret paladins would like to have a word with you .....

[Tobby]

You think fire is luck based spec ? Ret paladins would like to have a word with you .....

Sure, on the paladin forums maybe.

[Aunor]

The first part of your post sucks to read. Use .'s please.

@ Haldurion: I don't see have you afford to spam Flamestrike while it costs 5k mana.

Im sory im not from english speaking country so i strugle a bit, and yes i agree with flamestrike its just too expensive

[skylla05]

You think fire is luck based spec ? Ret paladins would like to have a word with you .....

Ret Paladin RNG is absolutely nothing like Fire Mage, shut up.

Hot Streaks are integral to our DPS. Not only do we rely on RNG to proc a Hot Streak, we need that same RNG to be able to effectively use Combustion. To get a good Combustion, the key is having a good Ignite, so you are once again relying on Fireball/Pyroblast to crit before you can use it (Ignite doesn't last long enough for the Ignite from the crit that procced Hot Streak to still be around by the time you are able to click Combustion). I've gone upwards of 15 casts before seeing a single crit, which not only isn't proccing Hot Streak, but it prevents me from using Combustion. 2 key abilities to Fire DPS.

Another problem is because of how Ignite works now, if Living Bomb or another DoT happens to crit between a Fireball/Pyroblast and hitting Combustion, you just lost a ton of damage because Combustion just used a small Ignite instead of the intended larger one. We're talking a 2 minute cooldown here, that we need to achieve reasonable DPS, losing damage like that is very significant. We're talking several thousands of DPS difference.

On top of that, to effectively AoE we also need to have Impact proc (10%), this can be achieved via FS/BW, but it can even take 6-10+ of them to even proc it, by that time Pyroblast and reasonable sized Ignites have fallen off, and our mana is half gone.

Go to the Paladin forums if you want to cry about RNG because you will get no sympathy from Fire Mages, in fact you will probably be ridiculed.

Im sory im not from english speaking country so i strugle a bit, and yes i agree with flamestrike its just too expensive

Don't worry about it, people just like to nitpick. It was perfectly fine to read.

[Sindy]

In my book it's less RNG than most things because you can effect the rate at which you get procs by improving a stat. Crit. There's true RNG out there like Retribution where most procs are a flat % that you cannot adjust with any stat, minus their mastery which clashes with all the other abilities anyway. Fire does have an element of surprise i like to call it, but imo, it's not really traditional RNG.

[Deleted]

Ret Paladin RNG is absolutely nothing like Fire Mage, shut up.
Another problem is because of how Ignite works now, if Living Bomb or another DoT happens to crit between a Fireball/Pyroblast and hitting Combustion, you just lost a ton of damage because Combustion just used a small Ignite instead of the intended larger one. We're talking a 2 minute cooldown here, that we need to achieve reasonable DPS, losing damage like that is very significant. We're talking several thousands of DPS difference.

Unfortuantely, thats just not how ignite works, it stacks. But yes, fire mage has obviously got far more RNG than ret paladin.

[Sindy]

Unfortuantely, thats just not how ignite works, it stacks. But yes, fire mage has obviously got far more RNG than ret paladin.

Fire mage more RNG than a ret? How do you figure? Just saying something doesn't make it so, and i believe you're quite incorrect.

[Deleted]

Fire mage more RNG than a ret? How do you figure? Just saying something doesn't make it so, and i believe you're quite incorrect.

We're within the parameters of what gear allows when we talk about Crit RNG, it doesn't just cease to be RNG. Also on any fight with more than 4 mobs impact becomes a problem too but lets ignore that and just think about crit, with the highest crit levels attainable this raid tier Fire dps still varies much more on any fight that matters due to RNG than ret dps does, ergo, fire has more RNG. The argument that it isn't RNG purely because it isn't set to a fixed percentage proc chance for a whole expansion is pretty ludicrous,

[Deleted]

Unfortuantely, thats just not how ignite works, it stacks. But yes, fire mage has obviously got far more RNG than ret paladin.

That's how Ignite is supposed to wrok, and it will, after it gets fixed. What's so RNG about paladin? Our Pyroblast! is sort of like your TV. Our scorch/fb has to CRIT 2 times in a row to activate it, while you have 100% TV after 3 crusader strikes. We have combustion, one of our most important spells, that has to be perfectly executed (FB/Pyro ignite + LB, preferably with sort of a SP increase + pyroblast dot). Any of the 3 dots missing and you're losing thousand of dmg, especialy on fights like magmaw, conclave and similar. So please, do tell me what could paladins possibly have that would rely on RNG more then this?

[Deleted]

That's how Ignite is supposed to wrok, and it will, after it gets fixed.

The bug with ignite, which has been mostly (but not entirely) fixed is that new crits weren't registering, they don't show up. they NEVER erase old crits that were larger.

[Sindy]

We're within the parameters of what gear allows when we talk about Crit RNG, it doesn't just cease to be RNG. Also on any fight with more than 4 mobs impact becomes a problem too but lets ignore that and just think about crit, with the highest crit levels attainable this raid tier Fire dps still varies much more on any fight that matters due to RNG than ret dps does, ergo, fire has more RNG.

This is completely wrong. I've seen Retribution parses on equally geared ret paladins played extremely well on cata bosses and one got 11k dps (awful) and the other got 16k dps. They are both skilled players, and played properly and had the same buffs. When we looked at the world of logs data it was revealed that the higher DPS paladin got almost 60% more procs than the lower one did. All the other stats and strikes unrelated to these procs were almost identical. Ret is far more RNG than fire mages because it's not 1 thing that's RNG in their arsenal. Art of war, Mastery, divine purpose, need i go on? ALL of the abilities for Ret are based on RNG. Ret is FAR more RNG than Fire. It's not even close...

[Deleted]

This is completely wrong. I've seen Retribution parses on equally geared ret paladins played extremely well on cata bosses and one got 11k dps (awful) and the other got 16k dps. They are both skilled players, and played properly and had the same buffs. When we looked at the world of logs data it was revealed that the higher DPS paladin got almost 60% more procs than the lower one did. All the other stats and strikes unrelated to these procs were almost identical. Ret is far more RNG than fire mages because it's not 1 thing that's RNG in their arsenal. Art of war, Mastery, divine purpose, need i go on? ALL of the abilities for Ret are based on RNG. Ret is FAR more RNG than Fire. It's not even close...

Well, for the first part, this variation in dps is seen regularly by fire mages, for the second part lets take art of war procs at a 40% proc rate. Using a 3.6 weapon on a 5 minute encounter this gives 83 swings which could proc. You're saying you see a 60% increase over the norm (which is 33 procs) to 52.8 procs in a 5 minute encounter. I can't remember much of my statistics but if anyone who does could see this and try and find out exactly what this probability is i'd be appreciable, but i can assure you its well outside the third standard deviation. So i'm not going to go play the game of calling you a liar, as even if i were correct that wouldn't get either of us anywhere, so what I am going to say is, assuming your scenario is true, it is unreproducable by ret standards and yet a pretty much everyday occurance for fire.

For the actual substance of this, you're misreading what the problem is with RNG in a pve environment. Having lots of relatively stable RNG elements to a spec (IE art of war) is not a problem, as art of war has a high proc rate and you'll have many many iterations to proc it over any fight, so your variation from the mean DPS is actually still very small, the problem is when either your sample range for an entire fight becomes very small (IE you don't have many iterations in one encounter for which this RNG can level out, see combustion) or the actual percentage procrate in the first place is very small (so a long encounter and many iterations doesn't go far enough to normalise the dps, see hot streak)

[Sindy]

Well, for the first part, this variation in dps is seen regularly by fire mages, for the second part lets take art of war procs at a 40% proc rate. Using a 3.6 weapon on a 5 minute encounter this gives 83 swings which could proc. You're saying you see a 60% increase over the norm (which is 33 procs) to 52.8 procs in a 5 minute encounter. I can't remember much of my statistics but if anyone who does could see this and try and find out exactly what this probability is i'd be appreciable, but i can assure you its well outside the third standard deviation. So i'm not going to go play the game of calling you a liar, as even if i were correct that wouldn't get either of us anywhere, so what I am going to say is, assuming your scenario is true, it is unreproducable by ret standards and yet a pretty much everyday occurance for fire.

For the actual substance of this, you're misreading what the problem is with RNG in a pve environment. Having lots of relatively stable RNG elements to a spec (IE art of war) is not a problem, as art of war has a high proc rate and you'll have many many iterations to proc it over any fight, so your variation from the mean DPS is actually still very small, the problem is when either your sample range for an entire fight becomes very small (IE you don't have many iterations in one encounter for which this RNG can level out, see combustion) or the actual percentage procrate in the first place is very small (so a long encounter and many iterations doesn't go far enough to normalise the dps, see hot streak)

I simply don't see the fluctuation in DPS that you're claiming. If fire gets a RNG proc, you'll get say for the sake of the discussion a 20k fireball crit 2 times in a row, generating a pyro causing you to complete your rotation. Now, on a 5 minute fight you will only cast combustion 2 times, so you really do have plenty of time to wait the right time to hit combustion. That ability isn't a factor due to the time you get to make use of it. Fire mages can use all of their abilities to maximum potential regardless as long as mana allows. When the RNG portion of fire occurs DPS increases to be sure, and sometimes you'll have bursts of procs, and lul's of procs. All of this of course can be improved through crit. Retribution on the other hand... You cannot use any ability other than a lackluster crusader strike until you get a proc. You are literally doing nothing but mashing crusader strike. When you do get procs (due to the huge huge crit damage TV and exorcism can cause) it makes far more of a difference to the end result in Ret's total DPS when they occur. I'm not saying fire is NOT RNG at all, i'm just saying that Retribution is the heavyweight champion of all that is Procadin.

[Deleted]

I simply don't see the fluctuation in DPS that you're claiming. If fire gets a RNG proc, you'll get say for the sake of the discussion a 20k fireball crit 2 times in a row, generating a pyro causing you to complete your rotation. Now, on a 5 minute fight you will only cast combustion 2 times, so you really do have plenty of time to wait the right time to hit combustion. That ability isn't a factor due to the time you get to make use of it. Fire mages can use all of their abilities to maximum potential regardless as long as mana allows. When the RNG portion of fire occurs DPS increases to be sure, and sometimes you'll have bursts of procs, and lul's of procs. All of this of course can be improved through crit. Retribution on the other hand... You cannot use any ability other than a lackluster crusader strike until you get a proc. You are literally doing nothing but mashing crusader strike. When you do get procs (due to the huge huge crit damage TV and exorcism can cause) it makes far more of a difference to the end result in Ret's total DPS when they occur. I'm not saying fire is NOT RNG at all, i'm just saying that Retribution is the heavyweight champion of all that is Procadin.

Again i'ma go use your argument that saying something doesn't make it true, and on a 5 minute fight we have 30 seconds per combustion to line up hot streak living bomb with a large ignite and any cast time/spellpower procs we may have. By no means is that ample time. I don't know if you're just plucking numbers or really havn't seen fire mage atm but it really is a pretty regular occurance to fight for a minute without a single hot streak, i dunno if you weren't aware of this but that could explain some stuff.

[Aunor]

So many paladins in this thread i just doublechecked if i didnt put it on pala forums by accident :I

[Sindy]

Again i'ma go use your argument that saying something doesn't make it true, and on a 5 minute fight we have 30 seconds per combustion to line up hot streak living bomb with a large ignite and any cast time/spellpower procs we may have. By no means is that ample time. I don't know if you're just plucking numbers or really havn't seen fire mage atm but it really is a pretty regular occurance to fight for a minute without a single hot streak, i dunno if you weren't aware of this but that could explain some stuff.

Yes, i'm sure it can happen. A whole minute without a hot streak, as it can go for a minute or more without getting an art of war (which i might add is only one of the many RNG abilities Ret has to deal with). Yes i have experience in BH on my mage and in heroics on 5 man bosses and very very rarely even at my gear level would i ever go a whole minute without a hot streak but you're right. it's possible. Now, consider that you got no hot streak procs at all during the whole fight. Now consider a ret paladin gets no RNG based procs. Who do you think would wind up doing more or less damage? Assume that both characters topped out normally with procs an average 15k dps. I'd put the mage at about 13k and the Ret paladin with all of their RNG abilities included at (seriously) 7k. Ret is more RNG because they rely on it as a main source of DPS much more than fire mages, and many more abilities are actually quite litterally RNG.

[Deleted]

Yes, i'm sure it can happen. A whole minute without a hot streak, as it can go for a minute or more without getting an art of war (which i might add is only one of the many RNG abilities Ret has to deal with). Yes i have experience in BH on my mage and in heroics on 5 man bosses and very very rarely even at my gear level would i ever go a whole minute without a hot streak but you're right. it's possible. Now, consider that you got no hot streak procs at all during the whole fight. Now consider a ret paladin gets no RNG based procs. Who do you think would wind up doing more or less damage? Assume that both characters topped out normally with procs an average 15k dps. I'd put the mage at about 13k and the Ret paladin with all of their RNG abilities included at (seriously) 7k. Ret is more RNG because they rely on it as a main source of DPS much more than fire mages, and many more abilities are actually quite litterally RNG.

The point is its not possible, its common, especially with fight mechanics being so elaborate, and also if we don't get a hot streak it prevents the use of combustion & so forth, if you don't get art of war, you don't get art of war, 'sabout it, and you havn't evaluated the base probabilities of either spec just 'not getting procs' because the problem here is its much more common for the one.