10M vs 25M raid difficulty: a look at the statistics

[Varabently]

All the casual/new players, do you think they go for 10 mans or 25 mans? I think the answer is obvious here, 10 man attracts newer and less serious players which is why there are more wipes % wise

I think that whole 10 mans attract worse players is kind of bogus. I enjoy 10 mans a lot more than 25 mans so I play those. And I am not a new or less serious player. I know exceptions dont make the rule, but just sayin. There are a lot of serious 10 mans full of great players.

[thundercles]

10 mans are much easier to get together particularly for pugging, so that is probably where the numbers come in.

No. Please read the OP's entire post.

PUGs don't post data on world of logs. If they do it's an extreme rarity. PUGS are not skewing the log data.

[Italiano1]

All the casual/new players, do you think they go for 10 mans or 25 mans? I think the answer is obvious here, 10 man attracts newer and less serious players which is why there are more wipes % wise

Ive never seen a pug take logs.

World of logs are guild groups.

I'm raiding 4/12 heroic at the moment and i can definitely clarify that 10 mans are way harder than 25. One death or mistake in 10 is a raid wipe. PLus healing is so much more intensive in 10 compared to 25. I like it this way however, it attracts people to 25 man raiding more.

[4KhazModan]

You also forget that if someone dies in a 10 man, it has a much larger impact than in a 25 man.

[Gunslinger]

I've done 25man and 10man in Cata and I can tell you this: you can boost ppl in 25s w/o problem but if you have 2-3 less skilled players in 10s you'll get to see just how punishing the bosses get. Sure 25s need more co-ordination but they're far less punishing for losing people or missing an interrupt 'cause you've got so many others that can interrupt this or BR that... heck in 10s you may not even get a druid or warlock in so that may even not grant you a BR.

PS: This is from a Normal raiding difficulty standpoint. Heroic I can see why 10s tend to have it slightly less demanding.

[Tolar]

I honestly interpret this data in another way. My guild for example started in 10man raids maybe a week after release only because we didn't have 25 individual players ready to go yet. We had enough for 2 10 man groups. Therefore 10 man was actually time for us to learn the new raids and wipe quite a few times before we got it down. When we then came in to do the 25 man versions starting last week we were very successful because we knew what we were doing. So now on bosses later in the instance we will be wiping more because we haven't even had experience in the new bosses. I don't know if that is the trend for everyone else but that is my experiences with 10 man raids. We honestly just don't care for the 10 man format.

[Deleted]

Feel free to flame me now, but IMHO 10man and 25man were balanced in ICC. That being said, 10man was still a lot easier because you were able to raid both 10man and 25man getting twice the loot, you could get 25man loot that was essentially one tier above 10man loot and then raid 10man with it and you could rezz as much as you liked.

With all this gone, Blizzard still felt the need to make 10man much harder than 25man simply because if 10man were even a little easier than 25man, the QQ would be tremendous.

[Deleted]

Ive never seen a pug take logs.

When did I say anything about pugs?

[thundercles]

When did I say anything about pugs?

Casual/new players are much less likely to take logs, and thereby much less likely to contribute data that might skew the percentages.

[Mad_Murdock]

Ive never seen a pug take logs.

World of logs are guild groups.

I don't know how true that is. In Wrath, I ran has many has 4 other toons besides my main in ICC raids. I posted logs for all the runs. Several of the groups that did GDKP runs also posted\kept logs on WoL. Partly to show some people why they were not invited back and partly to remember who they really wanted back.

I know of a few others that kept logs as well for their random pugs. I would agree that Pug data is probably around 10% of the overall data. I don't see hardly any pugs going on for Cata raids. Of those mot are just going for Magmaw kills. I would agree that Nefarion data would have to be nearly 100% guild data a this point.

To the OP's point. Due to the Time Warner issue, our 25 man raiding has been killed off. So we break up into (2) 10 mans when possible. We're not hardcore so we don't stack 1 group and give group 2 the left overs. As a result, we normally have 2 mediocre groups. If anything we're probably guilty of skewing the 10 man data wth extra wipes, because of poor group comps. :\

[fex]

Casual/new players are much less likely to take logs, and thereby much less likely to contribute data that might skew the percentages.

I think the rebuttal he was making is that when he said "baddies", he wasn't necessarily talking about pugs, but bad 10-man guilds. In other words, he should refer to my 3rd point instead of my first, in the original post.

I also wouldn't suggest that no pugs post logs, but it's definitely a very small fraction. And even out of those pugs, most are not making it up to the last few bosses of each area, further preventing them from tainting that data.

[Deleted]

now, if you watch closely while chaning between 10/25man on OP's links.. do you see the pacman hiding on the site?

on topic though, as someone stated before. If someone dies its more the twice the problem then if a person dies in a 25man.. obviously it depends on which role this person have, but still. 10mans are harder for those who stand in fire?

[underdogba]

A good point. It would stand to reason that 10s, being easier to organize and faster to get going, are where most "scrub groups" (that is to say groups put together by random people in a hurry who aren't really prepared) will be 10s. There is so much going on between the differences in 10 and 25 to skew the data.

I think it's pure fantasy to be assuming that 10 man groups that are in this category are remotely likely to be recording combat logs to upload to WoL!

[Elleares]

So I was messing around on World of Logs when I discover something... unexpected. Go take a look for yourself:

...

Toggle between "10-man" and "25-man" modes. Do you notice any trends?

Well I noticed you said "world of logs". Which, while a great website has incorrectly recorded 10 man logs we've posted as 25s, and 25 man logs as 10s... don't ask me how. 25 people on the damage/heal/dtaken #s should be a really obvious freaking switch... but the fact still stands that their recording is pretty much borked. Also, please click the HM toggles... and realize that they aren't recognizing the difference between normal and hm pulls for a *HUGE* number of the bosses.

Maybe more 10 man guilds are attempting the bosses on heroic mode than 25 man guilds because '10s were easier' and they are thus going to wipe more often as justification?

Until they can correctly recognize the difference between normal and hard mode, and more importantly 10 and 25 man! using their stats for any kind of real analysis is freaking retarded

Also, 10s and 25s may or may not be significantly different on a whole, however there are certain fights were things are vastly different.

1 - Al'Akir - this guy is a pain the effing ass on 25s because of lightning strike... its just hard to fit 25 people onto the effing platform, and to bring 5 nature resist folks, the #s tuning for this fight between 10s and 25s makes 25s significantly worse on 25s
2 - Halfus - LOLOLOL 10 heroic. The # of mobs people tank on 25s, halfus + 3-4 of the adds *at once* is just logistically unfeasible for 10s. The gap in difficulty between 10s and 25s on heroic is simply comical.
3 - Chimaeron - if your healers can avoid failing to heal people w/ slime debuff and people can spread the F out for a few minutes to hit p2 he's a freebie. He only attacks once per 5s, so you get 125s on 25s instead of 50s on 10s (as simply obvious 2.5x increase in time available) the health increase from 10s normal to 25s heroic is only 3.6x increase... so yea. he's a bloody joke p2 on 25s.
4 - Nefarian - actually fairly well balanced. P2 is much harder on 10s, but the other phases are easier compared with 25s.
5 - the council fights - 10s, o dear god are these easier on 10s, lol. They require people to spread out and feature things like chain lightning. Guess what, chain lightning effects are easier on 10s!! big surprise, lol.


PS - as for cho'gall I'm fairly willing to bet people are trying to do 2 tank 3 healer pulls on cho'gall... alot since that is standard for 10s and that fury of cho'gall debuff makes you think 2 tanks! and the damage intake makes you go 3 healers! Guess what? its a giant effing burn, 1 tank 2 heals and some creative play netted us a kill in like 10 pulls after about 30 pulls with a simply incorrect raid composition! Same goes for maloriak, bashing your head against the crappy raid comp wall doesn't make it harder it just means you need to try something different.

So have fun, play what you want to play and dear lord, do the fights both ways before you bash the other

[Manapaws]

All I know is I hate the environment in a 25 man raid. Call me strange, I know I play an MMO... but 25 players... =\ There is just so much more control in a 10 man. I wouldn't call it easier for sure, but you take 9 other people with you that you KNOW can pull their weight. Players seem to get lost in 25 mans and I don't know why.

[Fenixhart]

10 and 25s have different pressure points.

25s really suffer when it comes to "don't stand near your fellow raider" parts, but 10 mans suffer horrendously when it coems to "Keep thig guy healed or he dies"parts.

Instant Death mechanics are ridiculously punishing in 10 mans, as in a 10 man, a single death can mean a wipe.

[Slambient]

Players running 25 are generally more confident guilds with a better core of players(No offense to 10 man guilds) and the fact that 10 has more group comp and individual play restrictions.