View Poll Results: What should Blizzard do to heroics in 3.0.6? READ ENTIRE POST BEFORE VOTING PLEASE

Voters
83. This poll is closed
  • Leave Heroics as they are now, and implement my 'hard modes' change.

    21 25.30%
  • Nerf heroics, as planned, and implement my 'hard modes' change.

    6 7.23%
  • Buff heroics, to a degree harder than they are now, and implement my 'hard modes' change.

    5 6.02%
  • Leave heroics as they are now, with no hard modes.

    24 28.92%
  • Nerf heroics as planned, with no hard modes.

    18 21.69%
  • Buff heroics, to a degree harder than they are now, with no hard modes.

    9 10.84%
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  1. #1

    The Problem With Heroics - Why They are Being Nerfed and What Could be Done Instead

    Hello, MMO-Champion community,

    I have a proposition to make that I feel would go a long way towards solving the problem that blizzard has come up against with the new harder-style 5 man content in Cataclysm.

    First, I will describe my take on the problem.

    For most of Wrath of the Lich King, and to an extent from the start, 5 man content was a complete breeze to one-button-spam your way through once a day for badges/points. People outgeared them pretty quickly due to the wide avaliability of iLvl 200 epics, and not only didn't need to run them often but when they did run them could do it on almost auto-pilot. Blizzard recognised that this was a bad model, as it gave little to no preparation for whatever raids the newly geared new players would end up in. There is a strong arguement that raids were too easy as well, but that is not something I wish to discuss although I will later refer to it in passing.

    In Cataclysm, Blizzard decided to (and rightly so) make 5 man content an actual challenge, and a preparation for raiding in more respects than just gearing up. People had to know how to play, or you wouldn't kill bosses. It was that simple. They have now come to the decision that they have perhaps overtuned it. Not all players are active enough to belong to a guild that regularly runs 5 man content, regardless of how bad or good that player is, and so to an extent the content has to be doable by a random PuG of 5 people. It doesn't have to be easy as such, just not so much of a challenge that the AVERAGE PuG can't clear it without wiping more than say 4 times.

    I agree with Blizzard on this point; content does not need to be as hard as raiding in order to prepare you for raiding. If it does, then logic dictates that you need something to prepare you for the heroics, and 5 man normals were not close to hard enough to preform this role. You can have fight mechanics, such as Corborus's burrow phase, that have to be avoided without making them difficult to avoid. Provided the new players learn that there will be stuff to avoid while focussing on other things, the Heroic was a success. And so, heroics are being - almost accross the board - nerfed to an extent.

    However, the problem with this design is that it makes Heroic 5 man content trivial to any compatent group of 5 people who have know each other for years and took down Lich King 25 Heroic together. Blizzard can't make something equally challenging for them and Random pugs at the same time, while those two groups are fighting the same fight. So why not let them fight different fights?

    Here is my proposition: Nearly every boss in 5 man heroics has some sort of achievement attatched. Why not let these achievement criteria serve as hard modes? Say you are on your daily heroic run. During that run, for every fight where you meet the achievement criteria for that boss (whether or not you already have the achievement), you add an extra 10 valour points onto the total (base 70) that you earn for completing the run. This would offer an easier, normal mode for random PuGs to go through, that it would be considered unreasonable for an elitist player joining to expect the group to be able to do, while premade runs would have a harder content to clear for a well increased (but hopefully not totally OTT) reward?

    If this post is well recieved here on MMO champ, I will make a thread on the same topic and the same content on the Blizzard forums. I just wanted to see here first what the overall community response could be.

    I'm not going to do a TL;DR, not out of spite but because I simply feel that you need to have read the thread in it's entirety to understand my viewpoint.
    Who is Chris Metzen? He is supposed to be Turkish. Some say his father was German. Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Zarhym tell it, anybody could have worked for Metzen. You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that... poof! He's gone.

  2. #2
    to be honest while i was leveling and not geared i would have liked for blizz to incorporate the boss/mob mechanics that are in heroic dungeons to be put in normal dungeons...i dont like surprises :P

    thats the only change i would request....and more tank hp plz

  3. #3
    Brewmaster slackjawsix's Avatar
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    u missed nerf heroics make a hard mode selection

  4. #4
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    sorry the game is too hard for you. wrath of the zerg king was boring.... aoe, heal through fire, free loot.

    everybody seems to ignore the word "HEROIC"... just because its a 5man, HEROIC is still supposed to be harder.

    If you can't handle a heroic, stick to normal... Bored of normal? Learn the game

  5. #5
    Brewmaster Kiry's Avatar
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    Everything is easy at the end of the xpac. I believe for a large portion of people (that dont read forums) heroics are used as their end content and the data that Blizzard is collecting seems to indicate that there's difficulty in completing it.

    If more people leave the game when its not fun for them, that doesn't bode well for the health of a server or a game.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    sorry the game is too hard for you. wrath of the zerg king was boring.... aoe, heal through fire, free loot.

    everybody seems to ignore the word "HEROIC"... just because its a 5man, HEROIC is still supposed to be harder.

    If you can't handle a heroic, stick to normal... Bored of normal? Learn the game
    You clearly failed to read my post. Please don't reply again until you have.

    The game is not too hard for me, but some 5 man content at the moment is a little overtuned for what blizzard intends them to be, a learning ground.

    The crux of my entire post is to not ignore the word heroic. I am actually suggesting implementing ways of making it harder for increased rewards, you might want to familiarize yourself with this point. I strongly believe that blizzard can tune down heroics without making them 'easy' for anyone by following option number 2.

    Again, I can handle heroics and at no point do I suggest that I am unable to do so. Clearly you only read the poll options and totally failed to grasp any meaning in my actual post, despite the instructions not to vote until you have read it. Trust me when I say I learned the game a long time ago, and am simply making a suggestion to improve the play experience for EVERYONE.
    Who is Chris Metzen? He is supposed to be Turkish. Some say his father was German. Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Zarhym tell it, anybody could have worked for Metzen. You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that... poof! He's gone.

  7. #7
    They really should add another difficulty level above heroic... with like a 1 week lockout, and the bosses dropping valor points (not as many as raid bosses though ofc). These bosses could be tuned to the equivalent of raid content at least.
    They could even scale that difficulty to each new tier and continue to drop valor points.
    I for one would enjoy 5-man miniraids
    If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst at once into the sky, that would be like the splendor of the Mighty One... now I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by taekvideo View Post
    They really should add another difficulty level above heroic... with like a 1 week lockout, and the bosses dropping valor points (not as many as raid bosses though ofc). These bosses could be tuned to the equivalent of raid content at least.
    They could even scale that difficulty to each new tier and continue to drop valor points.
    I for one would enjoy 5-man miniraids
    This is in essence what I am suggesting, except instead of blizzard needing to completely redesign heroics they could use the existing framwork of boss achievements.
    Who is Chris Metzen? He is supposed to be Turkish. Some say his father was German. Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Zarhym tell it, anybody could have worked for Metzen. You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that... poof! He's gone.

  9. #9
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    -everyone- has 85 levels and "normal" dungeons to learn. Once you click that heroic button, it should be like the ToS... "You know this is going to be hard, do you still want to play?"

    Instead of trying to cry over every reply you get on this thread, maybe you should understand them better

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    -everyone- has 85 levels and "normal" dungeons to learn. Once you click that heroic button, it should be like the ToS... "You know this is going to be hard, do you still want to play?"

    Instead of trying to cry over every reply you get on this thread, maybe you should understand them better
    The hypocrisy of your post is delicious. It is you who does not understand. The OP is advocating making a Heroic modification allowing for 50% more heroism (to use a little colloquial infomercial talk). I assume, essentially, the way the hard modes in Ulduar, or perhaps OS3D were. I for one think this would be a great idea.

    You, however, have come in here, read the thread title and done nothing but spout "l2p." Get out of this thread.
    Cheerful lack of self-preservation

  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans Marxman's Avatar
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    Easier heroics means faster heroics means faster VP daily. I like nerfs to content that doesn't matter anymore. Heroics had their 15 minutes to shine, time to move on to hard raid content. Anything that makes it more tedious for me to get my 70 VP every day is bad news in my book.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    sorry the game is too hard for you. wrath of the zerg king was boring.... aoe, heal through fire, free loot.
    Gear up, its the same only takes 4 times longer to finish.

    Guild run = tank in dps gear pulling 15k dps and no one uses cc.

  13. #13
    Currently, it's: get tol'vir, rejoice.

    If this were to happen it'd be: get tol'vir, quit.

  14. #14
    You got it wrong where you assume heroics are actually that hard. They are not as hard as raids, they do not take too much time when you get the gear and learn to play them.

    If people cannot commit to spending an hour or two in heroics when they first start, or wiping 4 or more times, then they should not be in there. Heroics are the next part of the progression path up from normals, if people find they don't want to or simply can't progress from normals, they should not. After all, raids come after heroics, and if people want to reach raids they will need to realise that heroics are only a taste of raids.

  15. #15
    They should just leave them as-is. All these people who can't discern the difference between an interrupt and a flamestrike can have their chance to steamroll the heroics when the next tier of content is released and they can buy their welfare epics again.

    The achievements are already the hardmode, even though you get some of them for merely executing the encounter correctly. They come with their own reward in the form of a neato-riffic drake mount.

    The saddest thing that ever happened to this game was Blizzard's new modus operandi - capitulating to bad players and the entitlement generation.

    ---------- Post added 2011-01-13 at 02:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    Easier heroics means faster heroics means faster VP daily. I like nerfs to content that doesn't matter anymore. Heroics had their 15 minutes to shine, time to move on to hard raid content. Anything that makes it more tedious for me to get my 70 VP every day is bad news in my book.
    The expansion has barely been out a month. It's not time to start nerfing the content yet. It still matters. It's still progression for a lot of players. (not I, but for many it is)
    Last edited by Lansow; 2011-01-13 at 09:43 PM.

  16. #16
    The "increased rewards" is one of the biggest problems Wrath had, the gear scaling was outrageous which tada led to way overgearing heroics that you could solo heroics by the end of wrath.

  17. #17
    The Lightbringer
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    I didn't read your post. Here's why heroics are getting nerfed:

    The cutting edge progression minded people have left heroics far behind them. Now its the casuals turn. This is how WoW has always worked.

  18. #18
    Mechagnome Karot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkforCalde View Post
    I didn't read your post. Here's why heroics are getting nerfed:

    The cutting edge progression minded people have left heroics far behind them. Now its the casuals turn. This is how WoW has always worked.
    You didn't read his post. Therefore your reply is irrelevant.

    Anyway, I voted to leave heroics as they are now, implementing the hard mode rewards. It gives a little extra incentive to go after achievements, and keeps the content challenging for a longer period of time.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Veredyn View Post
    You, however, have come in here, read the thread title and done nothing but spout "l2p." Get out of this thread.
    THis guy has to be right... after all, he has Latin in his Signature.

  20. #20
    Thank you, most of you, for your constructive replies. They are the sort of feedback I was looking for.

    Ninurta, I have to disagree with your point about increased rewards becoming a problem for two reasons:

    a) The rewards would not be beyond what is already being offered in heroics, just slightly more of it for slightly more effort

    b) Wrath was by in large too easy, unlike heroics. I don't think too many people would disagree with me that a lot of cata heroic boss achievements are harder than ICC25 normal bosses were.
    Who is Chris Metzen? He is supposed to be Turkish. Some say his father was German. Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Zarhym tell it, anybody could have worked for Metzen. You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that... poof! He's gone.

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