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  1. #21
    New beat me to it
    Pokemon FC: 4425-2708-3610

    I received a day one ORAS demo code. I am a chosen one.

  2. #22
    Yeah, I can't imagine how fun it would be having your Shadow Word: Death miss on a boss below 25%.
    I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch, but one. An inch. It is small and it is fragile and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

  3. #23
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    Its well known you shouldnt proritze intel over anything including hit, but since you can't reforge intel the only thing you can do for it is gems. You shouldn't gem for hit which is also in the sticky I believe?
    It is in the sticky, I can tell you that for sure :P.

    ---------- Post added 2011-01-15 at 12:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    New beat me to it
    Of course, it was info from my threads, so close though .

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by New View Post
    It is in the sticky, I can tell you that for sure :P.

    ---------- Post added 2011-01-15 at 12:55 AM ----------



    Of course, it was info from my threads, so close though .
    I was about to post it, decided to refresh page and then saw your post

    >.>
    <.<

    ---------- Post added 2011-01-15 at 12:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Abandon View Post
    Yeah, I can't imagine how fun it would be having your Shadow Word: Death miss on a boss below 25%.
    30k crits gonna miss

    /cry
    Pokemon FC: 4425-2708-3610

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  5. #25
    The Patient
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    Sorry I stole your thunder, but thank you for trusting my work.

  6. #26
    Deleted
    I think I am going to reforge my crit to hit then (but keeping my haste), despite the fact that crit may be offering a small dps increase in comparison. It seems like the popular choice is to aim for the hit cap, which is quite understandable and very reasonable too .. I guess missing a mind blast when your empowered shadows is about to fall off, or missing a dispel on bosses like Maloriakk would have crucial effect.

    Thank you for your guidance ^^

  7. #27
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    You're welcome. It is a highly debated issue and there is a lot of room left for interpretation so people do get confused (especially when you only look at the simcraft numbers without analyzing them). The hit cap debate is valid point of discussion, and an interesting one at that; with people on both ends of the spectrum.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by New View Post
    You're welcome. I The hit cap debate is valid point of discussion, and an interesting one at that; with people on both ends of the spectrum.
    Hi! My name is zito and I am addicted to hit rating.

    Edit: yea brewmaster!
    Pokemon FC: 4425-2708-3610

    I received a day one ORAS demo code. I am a chosen one.

  9. #29
    Being under hit cap is dangerous if you have an important role in progession raiding. I don't personally play a dps spec on my priest, but hit is beneath intellect for my mage and I still shoot for the cap for things like snares, interrupts, and dispels. I'm not sure how relevant hit cap roles are to a shadow priest, but if you don't find yourself needing to do something "special" that you cant afford to miss, then follow simcraft stat weights to the letter. If you do have one of said roles, hit cap is going to trump everything else. 1% more dps doesn't save you if you miss your spell and half your raid dies.

    That's my personal outlook, anyway. The other side to it is reliability of rotation and adapting to a miss is a bigger dps loss than the "perfect" sims would be able to relay. If you don't notice that your VT missed and you go without it for 10 seconds, then you were probably better off being hit capped. If you can adapt quickly and are good at noticing such misses and you know your class well enough to recover in the dps-optimal way, then follow the theorycraft to the letter still.

  10. #30
    The Patient
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    That is exactly the outlook you should have Skarrd. Except I think your very last point about handling misses may be wishful thinking. It is completely true that should you play perfectly over 10,000 boss fights, you will have higher DPS by neglecting some Hit for Crit/Mastery/Haste, but the ability to do so, and the gain you get by it, just isn't worth the risk.

    The same idea came up in the last expansion with clipping Mind Flay at 2 ticks to refresh DOTs or Mind Blast. Theoretically, it was a DPS gain. The margin of error was so great though that one mess up and you would lose whatever gain you had from doing so. It is sort of the same idea with hit cap or no hit cap.

    I do plan on redesigning that reforge tree as it is kind of clunky, and perhaps, does leave too much to be assumed and interpreted. I'll get a new version up by tomorrow.
    Last edited by New; 2011-01-15 at 01:22 AM.

  11. #31
    I'm not hit capped and I think I will never be unless the gear I've got someday is bleeding spirit all over.

    Here is my armory link

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ervaise/simple

    Here are some DPS records from some battles:

    Omnitron Defense System:
    http://img266.imageshack.us/i/omnhp.jpg/

    21k with Dark intent and 15.4 hit

    Halfus:
    http://img266.imageshack.us/i/halfusf.jpg/

    35k with Dark intent and 15.7 hit

    Valiona and Theralion:
    http://img687.imageshack.us/i/valc.jpg/

    19k with Dark intent and 15.4 hit

    Maloriak:
    http://img59.imageshack.us/i/malol.jpg/

    23k with Dark intent and 16 hit



    I don't recall missing more than 3-4 times in any fight with 15.5> hit. If you have a mod that will make a sound when you miss, it'll be no problem. I'm never going to lose the amount of haste or intel I have to avoid missing 3 puny initial dot casts.

  12. #32
    If you are really stacking other stats over hit you are foolish. Theorycrafting works only so much; you have to take the results with a pinch of salt and common sense. If you could stack int over hit then maybe that would be a different story but you can't.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaise View Post
    I'm not hit capped and I think I will never be unless the gear I've got someday is bleeding spirit all over.

    Here is my armory link

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ervaise/simple
    Armoury says your .12% above hit cap. Also being close to hit cap but not on it won't effect dps much. However neglecting hit all together is a no no.
    Pokemon FC: 4425-2708-3610

    I received a day one ORAS demo code. I am a chosen one.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    Armoury says your .12% above hit cap. Also being close to hit cap but not on it won't effect dps much. However neglecting hit all together is a no no.
    It's actually 16.5 atm, i was just swapping out items before posting


    Besides that: My actual point is, you'll get the hit you'll need even after reforging most spirit and hit to haste. being over 15> is what you should consider in trying to optimize your stats.
    Last edited by Jervaise; 2011-01-15 at 01:32 AM.

  15. #35
    The Patient
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    The issue isn't whether or not you can still hit big numbers without getting hit capped, its that you run the potential to lose the DPS gain by chosing other secondary stats. However, on the other side of the coin, there is the potential to gain DPS by neglecting hit. Do whatever works for you is always the solution you could come out with in the end.

    ---------- Post added 2011-01-15 at 02:34 AM ----------

    Going into World of Logs for a moment:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r.../#tab-dmgspell

    With 2250 Haste (17.57%) * 5% Mind Quickening * 3% Darkness * 3% Dark Intent= 30.9655% total spell haste
    1.5 second cast is now = 1.145 seconds long
    GCD = 1.145 seconds long

    Now we can click on your spells to see how many times you missed with each spell. Now, assuming you were perfect on recasting a missed spell after the millisecond you missed (only counting misses not absorbs):

    Vampiric Touch @ 1 misses = 1.145 seconds
    Mind Flay @ 3 misses = 3.435 seconds
    Shadow Word: Pain @ 1 miss = negligible as I'm sure it didn't fall off with a soon thereafter Mind Flay

    Combining the lost seconds, you now have 4.58 seconds of time wasted due to misses. Lets use the lowest DPET spell, Mind Flay, with a channel time of 2.291 seconds (at your 30.9% spell haste), we get a possible 2 extra full casts of Mind Flay being able to be fit into this boss fight. Now using the average hit of your Mind Flay (7905.7) this equations out to be an additional 47434.2 damage over the course of the fight. This should provide as an example of the lowest possible gain as we use the lowest DPET spell and don't factor crits in.

    You did 8796199 Damage over your 406.6s period gave you your initial 21506.7 DPS. If you squeak in the extra 47434.2 damage you could have gotten, it would be 21750.204 DPS. A gain of 243.5 DPS.

    So what gain did you get by neglecting the hit cap?

    Using simcraft profiles of your character:

    jervaise : 18285dps

    Now if we reduce Haste by 47 and replace it with spirit (+47) to get to the hit cap:
    **Assuming you're getting your best secondary stat by reforging something lesser (spirit)

    jervaise : 18276dps

    So you gained 9 DPS by neglecting the hit cap.

    Analysis: Through poking through your guild's World of Logs, we have see a break down on the amount of spells you have missed, and by extension, the missed time to be doing more damage. The potential low end net gain of DPS by being hit capped in this situation was ~243 DPS. We then later saw by neglecting hit and going with a more favorable stat, there was a DPS increase of ~9 DPS. It appears that the gain from being hit capped outweighs the gain by not being hit capped. The potential gain from being hit capped would be even greater if you factored crits into the mix, or even more so if you had used a higher damaging spell during that time.

    Conclusion: You really should be hit capped.

    To Jervase: This was not an analysis done in hostility and has no intention of defaming you or you choices gear choice and play style. It is merely an example of what I have been trying to say this whole thread. I hope you find it enlightening and that others could take it as a great example as well.
    Last edited by New; 2011-01-15 at 03:01 AM.

  16. #36
    I'm personally hit capped. Partially because of New's explanation above, but it's just mainly because of the fact that I don't want to watch out for anything that is unnecessary.

    We already got DoTs, cooldowns, shadow orb procs, and boss mechanics to watch out for. Misses are the last things I want to watch out for when there's already all these other more important stuff.
    Last edited by zsun; 2011-01-15 at 08:53 AM.

  17. #37
    you dont get hit , you get spirit whenever possible. Provides minor trivial increases over hit but it is a second option for every slot , along with the ability to use it to offspec heal when needed.

    Simcraft might tell you not to take hit but your gonna take hit. You get as close to the cap as you can as fast as you can to raid.
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  18. #38
    Deleted
    I used to be on the whole "AVOID HIT, OMG" bandwagon, untill I did my own simcrafts involving my character and also ran 359/372 BiS simcrafts.
    Guess what I found? Hit is a pretty good stat still, it depreciates as your hit rating gets higher. Higher valued than Crit and mastery (Most likely up to point, ofc), but not haste and int. Also, the BiS list, I found the gearsets already had close, or over 17% hit rating. Hence probably the lowest stat weight we should see for hit rating.

    I'm currently at about 15% hit, I don't feel it's much more of an increase to get hit much more, as I miss a few ticks a fight, I occasionally notice missing a start cast of a mind flay, or DoT but that is about it. From pure assumption, I'd believe middle ticks of spells can miss too which is hardly a dps loss which lowers our value of hit rating and 'lessens' the risk of having a start cast miss. This is effectively a question in teself, if anyone could tell me otherwise/confirm, I would be grateful.

    Sidenote; these simcrafts reflect live.
    Last edited by mmocffca35fda3; 2011-01-15 at 12:06 PM.

  19. #39
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lairyfiquid View Post
    I used to be on the whole "AVOID HIT, OMG" bandwagon, untill I did my own simcrafts involving my character and also ran 359/372 BiS simcrafts.
    Guess what I found? Hit is a pretty good stat still, it depreciates as your hit rating gets higher. Higher valued than Crit and mastery (Most likely up to point, ofc), but not haste and int. Also, the BiS list, I found the gearsets already had close, or over 17% hit rating. Hence probably the lowest stat weight we should see for hit rating.

    I'm currently at about 15% hit, I don't feel it's much more of an increase to get hit much more, as I miss a few ticks a fight, I occasionally notice missing a start cast of a mind flay, or DoT but that is about it. From pure assumption, I'd believe middle ticks of spells can miss too which is hardly a dps loss which lowers our value of hit rating and 'lessens' the risk of having a start cast miss. This is effectively a question in teself, if anyone could tell me otherwise/confirm, I would be grateful.
    No one advises completely avoiding hit, that'd be utterly retarded.

    And no, ticks can't miss. Only thing a spriest can miss are initial casts, which is part of why hit is worth less to us - you don't lose 2.5 sec channeling MF if it misses, you lose 1.3 sec of GCD after attempting to start channeling it.

  20. #40
    Deleted
    I know theorycrafting shows that going for hit (aka spirit) on gear over dps-stats is not a good idea, but I'm going for hitcap with it anyway.

    Simply put, theorycrafting assumes that you know as soon as you cast the spell if it misses or not, and can immediately recast it. You don't. Not only does missing a spell annoy me, a spell miss effect gets exponentially bigger with anything else going on, such as lag or having to move.
    Imo, which going for harder-hitting stats will increase your patchwerk dps, in a raid situation where I am focusing on other things, my dps buttons are only in the background of what I'm doing as I know them so well by now. If I have to focus on missing spells too, it takes my attention away from encounter mechanics.

    ---------- Post added 2011-01-15 at 12:31 PM ----------

    Also, New, if neglecting the hit cap gains me 9 DPS out of 21k, I'm not going for it. The extra dps is not worth the inconvenience.

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