A good tank should...

[Nexgelu]

Have we hit Wrath again though, where healers are so pumped with mana we can just spam stam again? -_-

once you outgear heroics, thats the word.

[Happydonut]

keep aggro off me ( i am healer ) in a lousy 5 man. -it happens more often than u think for me to do more threat than tank simply by healing him <.<

or healing him to early, let the mobs get to him or evan better let him get a few his before u heal him hes not gonna get 1 shotted so on point in healing so early

OS

Its not all up to the tank, there are times where the healer heas to early make the mobs run around while making it hard to get agro at the same some dps teand to aoe dps mobs break cc, or evan not give the tank a few globles to get agro/posion the mobs right

i play resto "shaman in pve"

[Sy]

No, they don't.

Hitting hard and heavy has nothing to do with DK's survivability. None of their abilities will benefit their survivability by hitting harder.

well, i didn't say they do.

i said they "rely heavily on hitting", not they "rely on heavily hitting", which is a pretty big difference.
in case you still can't tell, the first "heavily" refers to the "rely", meaning it's important for them to actually hit. the second "heavily" would refer to the "hitting", meaning you need to hit with heavy damage. i didn't actually imply the later.

i know how my class works, thanks. you should read more carefully before assuming that another person here has absolutely no clue what they are talking about.

[Renowned]

Tank responsibilities:
- Use of defensive cooldowns/self heals/running out of bad stuff to avoid/heal as much damage as possible
- Use of stuns, interrupts, silences, slows, fears, taunts, etc. where appropriate to control mobs/adds as much as possible
- Position and rotate mobs to cause as little harm to self and party as possible
- Do as much threat (i.e. damage) as possible while obeying the above

DPS responsibilities:
- Use of defensive cooldowns/self heals/running out of bad stuff to avoid/heal as much damage as possible
- Use of stuns, interrupts, silences, slows, fears, misdirect, etc. where appropriate to control mobs/adds as much as possible
- Position self in relation to mobs and party to cause as little harm to self and party as possible
- Do as much damage as possible while obeying the above

Looks pretty much the same to me.

[Deleted]

oh dear god.
your attack misses = less threat, less debuffs on whatever ur attacking and you might miss a taunt.
your attack is parried by boss = boss automaticly smashes you back with auto attack.

Vengeance is a pure threat increase. it does not make you hit everything. what if raid bosses got exp capped and all your block,parry and dodge would be worth nothing? then you'd be hit 50k + EVERY 2 seconds.[COLOR="red"]

That's the whole point. Even without hitting all your attacks etc you still get enough threat tanks to vengeance. Threat basically only matters like the first 30 seconds.
Taunts cant miss (atleast for pallies).
And Parryhaste is basically disabled for any boss where it would matter, as it was in WotlK.

[Evolixe]

18. Hold aggro.
19. Not die.

I win.

[0smo]

afk the pug with ppl like you in it.

its still a game not a job and half the things i could rely back to dps not doing there job.

take a breath.... game!

no min age .... no pre course.... game

[saberon]

71. Mark a kill target. As a healer, I despise having a tank run in, tank 5 mobs and watch as they are all taken down together.

72. Use CD's effectively. Yes, it is only a 3 minute CD, so instead of FUCKING DYING, USE IT.

[Drunkenvalley]

i know how my class works, thanks. you should read more carefully before assuming that another person here has absolutely no clue what they are talking about.

Sorry, but I didn't assume a damned thing. I just plain and flat out misunderstood your post. And for misunderstanding I apologize.

[Sy]

Sorry, but I didn't assume a damned thing. I just plain and flat out misunderstood your post. And for misunderstanding I apologize.

i guess i might forgice you, since i'm feeling overly generous today :P

[Deleted]

DKs do well to stack stamina though since it improves their mitigation greatly.

[Pascal]

oh dear god.
your attack misses = less threat, less debuffs on whatever ur attacking and you might miss a taunt.
your attack is parried by boss = boss automaticly smashes you back with auto attack.

Vengeance is a pure threat increase. it does not make you hit everything. what if raid bosses got exp capped and all your block,parry and dodge would be worth nothing? then you'd be hit 50k + EVERY 2 seconds.

---------- Post added 2011-01-17 at 02:17 AM ----------



try stacking mastery, i heard it's awesome.

They pretty much have done away with parry haste on bosses. It wasn't even in ICC.

Hard cap (to not be parried) is 14% expertise, which is 56 expertise. Softcap (to not be dodged) is 6.5% which is 26 expertise. You can just barely hit 26 expertise (without additional expertise on your gear) with reforging, imagine having to get 56 expertise (431 rating) just to not get parried.

I have a feeling most of the people crying that you absolutely need to be hit and expertise capped probably don't raid tank. All the people saying "once you have threat, it doesn't matter," are 100% right. If you're teetering on the edge of having threat pulled every boss because you're actually godawful and your DPS are apparently super weapons (which would only happen if you seriously don't know how to play), then sure, go ahead and sacrifice tons of survivability for that extra 2-5% hit/expertise that is obviously the cause of all your problems.

We clearly don't mean "You better have 0% hit and 0 expertise if you wanna be a good tank!" If that's what you're thinking, you're a little kooky.

[Deleted]

This is a Tankadin Gold Rule:

When in doubt, round 'em up and Consecrate.

---------- Post added 2011-01-18 at 01:12 AM ----------

@Pascal: I think you made a mistake calculating the rating required for 56 expertise as I have pieces that give me about 100+ exp and thus expertise cap is obtainable with 4 pieces (3 if one's a trinket or 2+2 reforged trinkets that add mastery/dodge instead of stamina). Not to mention Hardened Elementium Hauberk, 228 expertise rating plus one of each (plate)tank's tier11 adds 168 more rating, totaling 396 that makes u need only 35 more rating. I think you're talking about the lvl80 rating cap.

[Sy]

DKs do well to stack stamina though since it improves their mitigation greatly.

what? o.O
how would stacking stamina increase your mitigation?

[Drunkenvalley]

what? o.O
how would stacking stamina increase your mitigation?

As most of death knight's "mitigation" is based on % of your maximum health, increasing your maximum health increases your mitigation.

...is the general logic, anyway. But in raids, the 25% of damage taken over last 5 seconds should always well outdo the minimum, and thusly stamina should fail to give mitigation there.

EDIT: It's 25% now, isn't it? I keep mixing up numbers now.

[lol]

Should have righteous fury up if a paladin.

[fizikz]

Use all the tools available to them.... interrupts, stuns, debuff(s), disarm/spellreflect/other CD's appropriately.

[darc]

1. Stack avoidance, not stamina. This is not WotLK. Having 200k health is all well and good, but it means little if you are taking 50k hits.
2. NEVER break CC unless all the non-CCed mobs are dead.
3. ALWAYS keep aggro on everything (obviously).
4. NEVER stand in mechanics that can and should be avoided (Ozruk comes to mind).
5. ALWAYS make the healer's job as easy as possible (that means self healing, absorbs, avoiding anything that can be avoided, CCing generally as much as possible).
6. ALWAYS explain the marks you are using.

Thoughts/opinions?

1. if hes a dk he can get away with stacking mastery if hes a druid he can get away with stacking mastery and crit. both apply bubbles wich in the long run absorb more damage then missed attacks.
2. yes yes and yes.
3. no it is his job to hold aggro on the main target and hold aggro over aoe damage on the others but if some dps single targets a target aside from the tanks and pulls it off it is not the tanks fault
4. this is everyones job and most fail at it but yes if a tank doesnt pull a mob out of aoe chances are dps arent going to move we dont think they know how to yet
5. this again is everyones job more often then not its not the tank that overwelms a healer a but all the dps standing in ooze taking damage that the healer cant keep up with the tanks
6. this is also true that the tank is always the leader of the group even when some twip tries to lead as a dps its the tank who is the true leader thank you for pointing that out

this guy is either saying man tanks need to learn thin
man tanks have it rough
or tanks are the core of the game the backbone of the world........ wich do i agree with lol

[Amandil]

2. NEVER break CC unless all the non-CCed mobs are dead.

I disagree. If there are 5 mobs, 2 dead, 2 cced, 1 tanked and half dead. It is reasonable to go break a mob and start tanking it. Clearly there may be a reason you need to CC it, but very rarely is a trash mob so bad in a heroic that you can't tank 2 of them. This gives you a little threat lead and you waste less time.

[Sy]

As most of death knight's "mitigation" is based on % of your maximum health, increasing your maximum health increases your mitigation.

it's definitely NOT "most"^^
it's only true for a very, very small percentage of your mitigation and even this small percentage is the one that matters the least (see below).

yeah, ds heals at least 7% of the dks max health. but you practically never press ds when it'd heal you for that small amount (well, at least if you know how to play the class).

It's 25% now, isn't it? I keep mixing up numbers now.

yes and no.
yeah, the "normal" amount would be either 25% of the damage taken over the last 5 seconds, or 7% of your maximum health - whichever is higher.
however, as blood, your ds is talented to heal 45% more - but that only affects the 25%. so you'll either heal for 36.25% of the damage taken, or for (still) 7% max health.

so in order to heal for the amount that is depending on your health (and therefore increase your mitiation through stamina), you would need to take less than 20% of your total health over 5 whole seconds, JUST BEFORE you use your ds. and since you are the one to decide when to use it, it should practically never happen, even more so since you have about 8 seconds between two ds to time them right.

and keep in mind, even if every, say, tenth ds would heal only for those 7%.. out of all of those ten ds, this one would be the one where it's heal/shield matters the very least, since it's the one where you didn't take any real damage for at least 5 seconds, even if you don't actually do any decent timing yourself (which you obviously should).

so saying stamina would improve dks mitigation "greatly" (that's the keyword here) is definitely not a reasonable argument, to say the least.
yes, stamina MAY increase their mitigation SLIGHTLY, in situations in which it matters THE VERY LEAST.
or, well, it may increase it even slighly more for someone who is playing the class terribly bad. but it's not like it's that hard.

on a sidenote, we will sadly be down to 15% (untalented) of the damage taken in 4.0.6, meaning 21.75% if talented.


edit:
oh yeah, i forgot about rune tap and death pact, my bad.
but the one is only 10% hp on a (roughly) 30sec cd, the other one is 25% hp on a 3mins cd. both are nice to have, sure. i use rune tap nearly every time it's of cd (if i wouldn't overheal myself and the group too much) and death pact can safe your ass every now and then. but both are not that strong.
besides, they are actually both healing, not mitigation, so i don't know if tobberoth took them into account.