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  1. #1

    [Priest] State of Shadow - 4.0.6

    Better late than never, hurray for closing the old thread, and starting fresh with the new patch on PTR.

    What's changed for Shadow Priests?

    First off: Mind Sear is once again the new hotness. Its damage doesn't blow anything out of the water, but it doesn't make you cry when you push the button anymore. It also can be cast on friendlies! Hurray.

    Mind Blast had its damage upped, so it's always worth casting.
    Pain and Suffering will no longer trigger Diminishing Returns!
    Power Word: Shield (discipline) has been buffed significantly, so Shadow can take another hit.
    Shadow Orbs have been buffed, but I still have no idea if that's just the front end damage, or if Empowered Shadows is part of that.
    Is Paralysis still bugged to be dodged/parried?

    So for PvE wise, Shadow finally gets a decent AoE, and PvP survivability goes up a bit and DoT security went up a fair bit as well.

    I'm probably missing a few things, but as usual: what's your take?
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
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  2. #2
    Deleted
    Yesterday I was doing Magmaw and I noticed that by Mind Searing the AoE packs I was losing a lot of dps compared to VT/Mind spiking all of them. I can't imagine a 15% buff to mind sear will make it worth casting again unless I just feel like being lazy at the cost of losing out on DPS. But hey, atleast it is no longer out-DPS'd by Holy Nova which has been what has probably annoyed me the most since Cataclysms release.
    I'm glad they finally decided to fix S&P, although it took them a long time for such a crucial talent in PVP.
    The buff to Mind Blast looks like it could significantly boost our single target DPS.

    Overall I'm liking the state of shadow in PvE, not sure what changes have been made to all the other classes to be able to judge PvP.

  3. #3
    Warning: Wall of Text

    Well I recently have been looking at this Mind Blast change, and have done some calculations involving its new DPET and DPCD (Damage Per Cooldown) as well as some other calculations involving delaying MB cast for a shadow orb proc. You may have already read about these calculations on the old "State of Shadow - 4.0.3" thread. But I suppose I should post the information again.

    I currently don't have the PTR client so I can only do calculations rather than actual experimentation with the new buffed Mind Blast. Since it is now hitting for 50% harder than Mind Spike, I assume it will hit for around 15000 damage with minimal buffs (since Mind Spike does approximately 10000 atm).



    DPET
    First lets compare the DPET of the new Mind Blast with some of our other top priority spells (Note SW:P has been omitted since it is always auto refreshed):
    To calculate the DPET, I have used my current haste rating which makes Mind Blast a 1.2sec cast
    Mind Blast DPET = 15000/1.2 = 12500 DPET
    Vampiric Touch DPET (+10% Evang, +13% Emp Shadows) = (4000 x 1.1 x 1.13 x 6)/1.2 = 24860 DPET
    Devouring Plague DPET (+10% Evang, +13% Emp Shadows) = (6050 + (2000 x 1.1 x 1.13 x 10))/1.2 = 25758 DPET
    Mind Flay DPET (+10% Evang, +13% Emp Shadows) = (2724 x 1.1 x 1.13 x 3)/2.4 = 4232 DPET

    From the DPET calculations, the two DoTs are still leading in terms of DPET. However Mind Blast's new DPET is now approximately TRIPLE that of Mind Flay.



    DPCD
    Now comparing the DPCD of the new Mind Blast with the same spells (Except Mind Flay since it has no cooldown):
    Mind Blast DPCD = 15000/(6.5 + 1.2) = 1948 DPCD
    Vampiric Touch DPCD (+10% Evang, +13% Emp Shadows) = (4000 x 1.1 x 1.13 x 6) / 15 = 1989 DPCD
    Devouring Plague DPCD (+10% Evang, +13% Emp Shadows) = (6050 + (2000 x 1.1 x 1.13 x 10)) / 24 = 1287 DPCD

    What does DPCD actually mean in terms of DPS? DPCD is pretty much same as DPS... it calculates how much each spell is doing per second. In addition it also tells you how much damage you are losing when you have downtimes. For example if Vampiric Touch had a down time of 5 seconds, then you would have lost 5 x 1989 = 9945 damage. Similarly, if your Mind Blast came off CD, but you didn't cast it until 5 seconds later, you would have lost 5 x 1948 = 9740 damage.



    So if MB is now buffed, do I cast it on CD even if it is orbless or do I wait for orbs or what?
    If you have at least 1 orb when MB comes off CD, then cast MB on CD! However if you don't have any orbs when MB is off CD then things do get a little complicated, especially if Emp Shadows is about to expire.

    To calculate the immediate rate of damage loss following the expiration of Emp Shadows, we must first assume that VT and DP damage are not immediately affected. This is because these 2 DoTs are presumed to be still ticking during the instant of the expiration and won't be refreshed until they expire as well, hence their damage won't be affected immediately. (But in the case that these 2 DoTs are falling off as well, do you refresh them first? Or do you keep flaying for an orb to get Emp Shadows back up ASAP? That is another issue for another thread). Anyway this leaves Mind Flay and SW:P to be the only 2 spells that will be immediately impacted upon the expiration of Emp Shadows.

    Mind Flay DPS (+10% Evang, +13% Emp Shadows) = (2724 x 1.1 x 1.13 x 3)/2.4 = 4232 DPS
    Mind Flay DPS (+10% Evang) = (2724 x 1.1 x 3)/2.4 = 3746 DPS
    DPS Loss = 486

    SW:P DPS (+10% Evang, +13% Emp Shadows) = 2926/2.4 = 1218 DPS
    SW:P DPS (+10% Evang) = 2644/2.4 = 1102 DPS
    DPS Loss = 116

    Total DPS Loss = 486 + 116 = 602 DPS

    Hence if we let Emp Shadows fall off, we immediately start to lose 602 flat damage per second.

    But what if I don't want to lose this 602 DPS?
    Now suppose you DON'T want to lose this 602 damage per second. Suppose after MB came off CD you still want to get that orb (to keep Emp shadows up) and you went for an extra Mind Flay. And lets suppose you actually managed to get that 1 orb on that extra Mind Flay. How much damage do you lose by delaying Mind Blast by 2.4 seconds?

    Mind Blast damage with 1 orb = 15000 x 1.113 = 16695 (using my mastery profile)
    16695 - 15000 = 1695 damage gained by 1 orb
    1948 x 2.4 = 4675 damage lost for delaying MB by 2.4 sec
    4675 - 1695= 2980 net damage lost over the extra 2.4 seconds.
    That's 2980/2.4 = 1242 DPS lost

    If you have to cast 2 extra MF to get that, that means you have to delay MB by 4.8 seconds.
    Net gain from 1 orb is still 1695 damage
    4.8 x 1948 = 9350 damage lost by the 4.8 second delay.
    9350 - 1695 = 7655 net damage loss
    7655/4.8 = 1595 net DPS loss

    By this time I would rather have 4.8 seconds of ES downtime rather than delaying MB by 4.8 seconds.
    But don't worry too much, the chance you will encounter an orbless MB coming off CD shouldn't be that great...a rough estimate would be around 13.75% chance.

    To sum up, in case of a situation where you have an orbless MB coming off CD, the best way is to just cast it, even if ES is close to expiring. If you want to delay it by casting an extra MF, then you must guarantee that you get the orb on this cast, because if you don't your loss would have been greater than if you had just casted that orbless MB.



    How will the Mind Blast change affect my starting cast sequence?
    It shouldn't change much. But since it now has a higher priority than VT and DP due to its higher CD, it should cast first and used as an opener. Even an orbless MB will do about 50% of an entire VT duration in just 1.2 seconds. However the MAJOR problem with this opener is that you will pull major threat, so maybe just stick to whatever you were doing before.

    While we are on the topic of opening cast sequence, I noticed a lot of people put up DoTs, get Emp shadows, then immediately refresh those DoTs despite they still have a long time to roll. This is actually a DPS loss compared to if you just let them roll till the end and refresh normally. Here's why:

    If you refresh immediately after you get empowered shadows, sure you will immediately gain the full benefit of empowered shadows but the act of refreshing dots will cost you 1 Mind Flay.
    1 Mind Flay, given a rough estimate is about 10k damage. And this means you will lose out on 10k damage.

    However if you let the initial DoTs roll till the end, you will lose the benefit of Empowered shadows for a while but this loss is actually not as bad as 11k damage (Keep in mind SW:P wont be affected since that will be auto-refreshed):

    VT: 4400 damage per tick (based on my current sp and evang), 4972 damage per tick with ES
    572 damage difference
    DP: 2200 damage per tick, 2486 damage per tick with ES, 286 damage difference.

    Assuming that your VT ticks 6 times total and DP ticks 10 times total, and not counting the initial tick since...well you definitely wont get ES up before the first tick of your initial DoT applications, that leaves with 5 potential VT ticks and 9 potential DP ticks that may suffer loss of damage by not recasting immediately.

    (5 x 572) + (9 x 286) = 5434 damage lost, lets just say it is roughly 5.4k

    Conclusion:
    Rough cost of losing 1 potential Mind Flay = 10k dmg
    Rough cost of not applying DoTs immediately after gaining ES: 5.4k dmg Maximum.
    As you can see, it is actually better to just let those initial DoTs roll till the end rather than immediately refreshing them to get the full benefit of emp shadows.


    EDIT: Just to clarify the calculations above are based entirely on my current stats and gear.
    Last edited by zsun; 2011-01-17 at 04:40 PM.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Keosen's Avatar
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    Ι like the MB buff much needed as well as the MS one.

    Mind Sear
    Don't have time to get in PTR but from the look MS still looks kinda weak and need to see it in a action to check if it's gonna make it back on my bars.
    At the moment i VT/SWP all if they are <=4 add/trash with moderate HP and works excellent most of the time topping the meters, in large packs like Maloriak VT all + VT/SW: P/DP the last one + Spam Holy Nova giving me an average of 25k so this will be my reference point

    Mind Blast
    I agree with zsun's maths and the general theorycrafting floating around till now but i feel that since now mastery=critical strike and reforging mastery->crit is no longer a big dps boost will make MB castable on CD regardless of orbs while we gearing up.
    And tbh i rarely finding my self without an orb when MB is up so i don't believe will see any major changes on our rotation.

    Also the MB buff get us to re-think raiding with -2%....-4% underhittcapped since know MB misses will have a greater impact on our general DPS.
    Back to 16% at least.

    Levitate + VE
    I like the levitate change also and i love the fact that VE now last until canceled so i don't have to keep an eye on it again.
    Last edited by Keosen; 2011-01-17 at 11:03 AM.

  5. #5
    High Overlord Dubhailt's Avatar
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    I'm loving the patch (Shadow/Disc Priest here), it can't come out soon enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keosen View Post
    I like the levitate change also
    Oooh, sounds like I've missed something exciting! Can somebody fill me in?

    I have another question to ask (PTR refuses to update for me right now):

    Mind Sear can now be channeled on friendly targets in addition to enemy targets.
    Does this mean you can target yourself?
    ^ _____ ^

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhailt View Post
    I'm loving the patch (Shadow/Disc Priest here), it can't come out soon enough.



    Oooh, sounds like I've missed something exciting! Can somebody fill me in?
    Duration changed from 2 to 10 minutes.

  7. #7
    High Overlord Dubhailt's Avatar
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    And just when I thought I had one less buff to refresh... I'm gonna be floating all over the place.
    ^ _____ ^

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Mind Blast had its damage upped, so it's always worth casting.
    Extremely dangerous idea... you can only cast MB with 0 orbs if there is at least 7.5 sec worth of empowered shadows duration left, otherwise putting it on CD could result in dropping empowered shadows which will completely negate (and then some) of the damage gain of casting MB.

    I would suggest you continue to only cast MB with at least 1 orb unless you are confident that you will notice if there is enough remaining duration on empowered shadows.

    ---------- Post added 2011-01-17 at 09:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by zsun View Post
    Warning: Wall of Text



    How will the Mind Blast change affect my starting cast sequence?
    It shouldn't change much. But since it now has a higher priority than VT and DP due to its higher CD, it should cast first and used as an opener. Even an orbless MB will do about 50% of an entire VT duration in just 1.2 seconds. However the MAJOR problem with this opener is that you will pull major threat, so maybe just stick to whatever you were doing before.
    This is just plain wrong... our dps is based on the concept of DPeT... for MB to be the highest in the priority it would need to do more damage for its execute time than VT, however you just mention that MB does half the damage of VT and therefore VT will always be the highest priority (under those assumptions).

    The theory being that you are casting the most damage (whether its immediate or over time) for the given GCD you can currently use. Think of a case where there were infinite mobs and you can simply cast VT on a fresh target, doing so would net 50K dps (or there abouts) becaus you can land 60K damage for every 1.2 sec of casting, if you were to throw in MB the amount of damage you would do would be less.

    In addition (as i pointed out above and you do mention ES a bit) putting MB on CD immediately will result in lost opportunities to get ES up early, meaning you'll probably miss out on an ES for one of your MF channels on occasion... considering opening rotation won't mean a hell of a lot long term I suggest you play your opening as set up for your true damage and that means delaying MB to proc ES the moment you can.

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Keosen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka View Post
    In addition (as i pointed out above and you do mention ES a bit) putting MB on CD immediately will result in lost opportunities to get ES up early, meaning you'll probably miss out on an ES for one of your MF channels on occasion... considering opening rotation won't mean a hell of a lot long term I suggest you play your opening as set up for your true damage and that means delaying MB to proc ES the moment you can.
    I'm casting MB on CD for quite a while now and i rarely (if never) have it casted without at least 1 orb and i'm kinda low on crit ~13% (~19% raid buffed) RNG was a problem in the begining of cata proc seems a lot smoother now as gear becomes better and better

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka View Post
    This is just plain wrong... our dps is based on the concept of DPeT... for MB to be the highest in the priority it would need to do more damage for its execute time than VT, however you just mention that MB does half the damage of VT and therefore VT will always be the highest priority (under those assumptions).

    The theory being that you are casting the most damage (whether its immediate or over time) for the given GCD you can currently use. Think of a case where there were infinite mobs and you can simply cast VT on a fresh target, doing so would net 50K dps (or there abouts) becaus you can land 60K damage for every 1.2 sec of casting, if you were to throw in MB the amount of damage you would do would be less.
    I concede this is true for an infinite number of mobs as you can deal more damage per 1.2s cast with VT if you were to cast it on a fresh mob every time. But what if you don't have a fresh mob? In a single target situation, you must also consider the damage per cooldown. Once you get VT up, you are restricted from casting it for the next 13.8 seconds. Where as this restriction is only 6.5 seconds for a MB.
    However I do still concede VT is the higher DPS component due to a couple of minor errors in my above calculation and hence priority should be given to VT to minimize its downtime. The errors were simply that I ignored the fact that you can refresh VT prematurely, meaning, before the last tick lands.. as well as the fact that VT can increase the number of ticks after certain haste ratings. This will put its DPCD back above MB. I have made this correction in the above post. Here is basically the correct calculation:

    Hypothetically, If you treat both of them as DoTs:
    VT does 30000 damage over a 15 sec period (assuming 6 ticks) - 2000 DPS
    MB does 15000 damage over a 7.7sec period (or 29221 over a 15 sec period) - 1948 DPS

    As of now, where most priests' VT is still 6 ticks, the damage both spells can do over a 15 sec period is quite close, with VT still having the edge over Mind Blast.

    And just for the record my opening VT is actually 26400 damage over 15 seconds since it is not affected by ES. This means starting out with MB is again the better option in terms of damage over 15 seconds. This will probably be the case until VT gains an additional tick.


    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka View Post
    In addition (as i pointed out above and you do mention ES a bit) putting MB on CD immediately will result in lost opportunities to get ES up early, meaning you'll probably miss out on an ES for one of your MF channels on occasion... considering opening rotation won't mean a hell of a lot long term I suggest you play your opening as set up for your true damage and that means delaying MB to proc ES the moment you can.
    Again, I understand you concern about losing this opportunity to get ES up early. However, because of the 6.5 sec cooldown you won't really miss out on much even if an orb popped on the very first Mind Flay you cast. Assuming you opened up with an MB before proceeding to your normal DoTs, it takes 3 GCDs to get the 3 DoTs up plus a 2.4 second Mind Flay to get the first orb. All that adds up to 6 seconds, meaning you only have to wait 0.5 seconds before MB CD is up again.

    Scenario 1: 3 DoTs, then Mind Flay (assuming orb proc), then Mind Blast - ES is up after 7.2 seconds
    Scenario 2: MB, then 3 DoTs, then Mind Flay (assuming orb proc), 0.5 seconds, Mind Blast - ES up after 8.9 seconds
    Problem: would you trade 1.7sec of ES downtime, which includes 0.5sec of total downtime for an extra 15000 damage? In fact that 0.5 seconds cant even be called total downtime because DoTs are still rolling. I certainly would make that trade. And what if you DIDN'T get that orb on your first Mind Flay (45% chance that you don't)? Are you just going to keep delaying that Mind Blast till you do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka View Post
    Extremely dangerous idea... you can only cast MB with 0 orbs if there is at least 7.5 sec worth of empowered shadows duration left, otherwise putting it on CD could result in dropping empowered shadows which will completely negate (and then some) of the damage gain of casting MB.

    I would suggest you continue to only cast MB with at least 1 orb unless you are confident that you will notice if there is enough remaining duration on empowered shadows.
    Actually the total DPS loss from ES downtime:
    602 DPS from MF and SWP
    For DP it is (2486/2.4) - (2200/2.4) = 119
    For VT it is (4972/2.4) - (4400/2.4) = 238
    Total DPS loss = 602 + 119 + 238 = 959 damage per second
    I can't think of any other periodic damage that will be affected so we'll leave it at that.

    Delaying Mind Blast was calculated to be 1948 damage lost per second delayed, however this is slightly offset due to the fact that the next MB will be slightly more powerful due to the presence of 1 orb. Hence the actual DPS lost is slightly lower.
    ES downtime would cause at maximum 959 damage per second of its downtime

    Anyway, on a standstill fight ES downtime shouldn't be an issue. Even if you cast mind blast on cd, the chances of going through 15 sec without an orb proc is literally around 1-2%.
    Last edited by zsun; 2011-01-17 at 04:51 PM.

  11. #11
    The Patient
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    Dammit kel, Shadow Orbs are the new hotness. Didn't you read my guide? Mind sear is the cream fillin'.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Keosen View Post
    I'm casting MB on CD for quite a while now and i rarely (if never) have it casted without at least 1 orb and i'm kinda low on crit ~13% (~19% raid buffed) RNG was a problem in the begining of cata proc seems a lot smoother now as gear becomes better and better
    Your gear has no impact on the RNG of orb generation. It should, but it doesn't.

    On our Nef kill this week, my DOT uptimes were 98+% and my ES uptime was 92%. Not terrible, but it should be 99%. If I were to keep MB on CD, that 92% could only go down. Unless they change the proc mechanism for orbs, I will most likely continue to wait for an orb before MB even with the buff.

    Of course, this could go back the theorycrafters, just like the hitcap discussion. Will the damage gain from keeping MB on CD be greater than the DPS lost from the chance of ES dropping off more often? From Zsun's post, I would say no, but I'm not sure how accurate his DPET numbers for MB are in the PTR.
    Last edited by cruxxy; 2011-01-17 at 05:03 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Better late than never, hurray for closing the old thread, and starting fresh with the new patch on PTR.


    Is Paralysis still bugged to be dodged/parried?
    Paralysis does not seem to be able to be dodged/block/parried anymore however warriors can still charge it.

    ---------- Post added 2011-01-17 at 06:07 PM ----------

    BIG NEWS EVERYONE

    we can dispersion while mounted again

    woot!
    Pokemon FC: 4425-2708-3610

    I received a day one ORAS demo code. I am a chosen one.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    BIG NEWS EVERYONE

    we can dispersion while mounted again

    woot!
    Really? Sweet . I never understood why they removed it in the first place. Or maybe it was not intended?

  15. #15
    sorry zsun, but your logic is simply incorrect... dps is a simple game in that it boils down to getting as many GCDs as possible and using those GCDs to do the most amount of damage at the time they are used. Casting MB before VT is a flat DPS loss, the only time this wasn't the case (in the past) was when casting MB on CD caused a MB & VT conflict every VT refresh, in that case it was wise to cast MB before VT because you reduced the number of conflicts.

    Now that you need to have at least 1 orb, being able to say for certain when you require to put MB on CD can't be predicted accurately, to that end you always cast your higher DPeT spells first because that is what will do the most damage for that moment in time in your GCD useage. VT (in BiS gear) will add nearly 60K damage, MB (with very generous assumptions) will add 25K, for that reason prioritising a MB above VT in any circumstance will lead to a DPS loss.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka View Post
    sorry zsun, but your logic is simply incorrect... dps is a simple game in that it boils down to getting as many GCDs as possible and using those GCDs to do the most amount of damage at the time they are used. Casting MB before VT is a flat DPS loss, the only time this wasn't the case (in the past) was when casting MB on CD caused a MB & VT conflict every VT refresh, in that case it was wise to cast MB before VT because you reduced the number of conflicts.

    Now that you need to have at least 1 orb, being able to say for certain when you require to put MB on CD can't be predicted accurately, to that end you always cast your higher DPeT spells first because that is what will do the most damage for that moment in time in your GCD useage. VT (in BiS gear) will add nearly 60K damage, MB (with very generous assumptions) will add 25K, for that reason prioritising a MB above VT in any circumstance will lead to a DPS loss.
    Ah yes, my apologies, after reconsidering your post (and the post you made above that) I have realised that there was indeed a flaw in my previous logic.

    I retract the previous statement from my previous post.

  17. #17
    The Lightbringer Keosen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruxxy View Post
    Your gear has no impact on the RNG of orb generation. It should, but it doesn't.
    Re-read tooltip
    Increases the chance for you to gain a Shadow Orb when dealing damage with your Mind Flay and Shadow Word: Pain by 8%, and you have a 100% chance to gain a Shadow Orb when critically hit by any attack.
    That means you have more chances to proc an orb with 20% crit than with 10% crit thus gearing means that the orb procs chance increasing through crit.

    My opener is
    - VT->SW:P->DP->->SF->MB->MF by this time 99% of the time i have VT expiring in 3-5 seconds and i have at least 1 orb+5x stacks
    - Casting MB proccing ES
    - Refresh VT and pop Arch by the time my DP fades i always have at least 1 orb+5x stacks again so i can refresh it with no dps loss.

    This is not gambling i do this for a couple of weeks now in every single pull and i never so far find my self without an orb when i need to cast MB
    Last edited by Keosen; 2011-01-18 at 08:16 AM.

  18. #18
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Keosen View Post
    and you have a 100% chance to gain a Shadow Orb when critically hit by any attack.
    Re-read tooltip
    That means you have more chances to proc an orb with 20% crit than with 10% crit thus gearing means that the orb procs chance increasing through crit.
    you should reread the tooltip you have a 100%chance to get an orb if you get critically hit, like in pvp :>

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer Keosen's Avatar
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    If this is true then i suppose the tooltip is missing a "get" or "being" keyword and i was wrong.
    Last edited by Keosen; 2011-01-18 at 08:41 AM.

  20. #20
    "when critically hit by any attack." Seems pretty clear to me that it is when you receive a critical hit, not deal one.

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