Shortening DPS queues - getting current tanks to want to run consecutive dungeons

[reverendball]

<Moderator Edit: Err NO, do not duplicate threads just because one gets long and you don't like that. LOCKED!!>

pity the other thread got so long, there were some good suggestions earlier in the 25+ pages of argument
mostly about getting more ppl to want to tank and helping out those already tanking

to reiterate the better suggestions for ppl who didnt read it all:


1) award extra JP/VP to tanks who COMPLETE consecutive dungeons/heroics

PROS:
this is a good idea, as it will encourage tanks not only to complete dungeons, but to queue again
meaning that dps who have waited 45mins in queue, have a chance of multiple dungeons
also, it will allow tanks to get geared up faster, lowering the chance of wiping
JPs for regs and VPs for heroics, say normal bonus 70 for the first daily, 20 for 2nd, 30 for 3rd and 50 for 4th. then no bonuses after that.
that way, undergeared tanks can earn 346 gear faster, instead of spamming the same 3 reg dungeons forever waiting on bullshit drop rates for 333 gear
and raid tanks can earn their epics, giving them a reason to queue in LFD and help out the general populus more than once a day

CONS:
every herp derp hybrid and his cat will try and tank, refusing to leave, to get JP/VPs to help their main spec dps gear
players capped for JP/VP get no benefit, as there is no "badge sink" currently live in game
mass dps qq about tanks getting extra VPs


2) drop the prices on JP/VP tank gear

PROS:
given the likely mass dps qq over tanks being able to earn more VPs in the first option, despite it lowering the dps queue times
dropping the prices for tank gear seems to be the next most viable option
that way, everyone is still earning equal VP, appeasing the masses, and tanks are able to gear up faster (with ONLY tank gear being cheaper)
more geared tanks == less wipes == faster dungeons == shorter queues

CONS:
this doesnt really give geared tanks any incentive to come back past their initial daily


3) the Oculus bag

PROS:
this one can be implemented on its own OR in addition to options 1 or 2. being the infamous Oculus bag
everyone remembers blizz plan to get ppl to run the hated H Occ with a bag of goodies at the end, being a gem and chance at mount
now before you say it, im NOT implying that tanks should get a chance at a tank only mount
but, perhaps a chance at random materials of increasingly high value for the first 3-4 dungeons per day
anything from a stack of cloth, to gems, to enchanting mats, to pristine hides, to elementium, to chaos orbs, to truegold to whatever
the later more expensive stuff being rarer and only in say 4th dungeon bags
this can be changed and balanced to include whatever
this encourages tanks to complete consecutive dungeons/heroics by providing them with something valuable to either help them gear or AH for gold

CONS:
again, with the masses of dps QQ incoming, despite this being a viable way to shorten the queue they are complaining about in the first place
again with the loads of herp derps trying to tank just for a chance on something valuable
AND adding more RNG into the game like this will inevitably have some crazy luck imbalance
e.g. tank A gets crazy good luck and gets truegold on his 4th dungeon everyday
tank B gets painful fail luck and gets all pristine hides on his plate tank (despite being valuable, but the least useful)
leading to more qq on the forums


these were the best suggestions so far as i can tell
without having crazy "pure>hybrid" implications
there was a good one about having bonus rep gain too, but again, that leaves exalted tanks with no bonuses

also, before anyone asks, i have a mage, a tree drood healer and a pally tank as my 85s, various other 80s that will get looked at later
so im not biased towards tanks OR healers OR dps, okiez :P

TL-DR encouraging current tanks to do consecutive runs and new tanks to gear easier will shorten humungous dps queues

[Adis]

As I posted on another thread plate tanks already have an easy time gearing, compered to plate dps. Which mean most of the time they will do only one random hc for valor points and probably most of the tank do it with guild.

So all of the above suggestion will make the situation worse because they will increase the speed tank get their gear even more.

tanks have really easy time gearing up, you are the only tank in the party no concurrent when rolling and also from reputation there are more tanking gear then dps (from a warrior point of view).

I'm main spec Arms and when we wanted to make a guild run but had no tank online I made a run on all rep vendors (i'm exalted with all cata factions) and I ended with my tanking gear having a higher average ilvl then my dps gear (that I was farming for weeks). There are only 2 epic dps gear for warrior from rep vendor and there are 3 for tanks. Also tanks can get a cheap epic shield and belt from blacksmithing while dps can't get any cheap epic from blacksmithing because they get belt from rep vendor.

[reverendball]

As I posted on another thread plate tanks already have an easy time gearing, compered to plate dps. Which mean most of the time they will do only one random hc for valor points and probably most of the tank do it with guild.

So all of the above suggestion will make the situation worse because they will increase the speed tank get their gear even more.

you didnt manage to read option 1, so im assuming you didnt read any of it

the plan is ENCOURAGE more tanks to use to LFD system for multiple runs in a day, to shorten dps queues for all
rather than just the initial run for bonus VP

you are complaining about rep epics ("repix") and crafted epic gear, all of which are above the heroic dungeon 346 standard

this will help more tanks get out of the fail regular dungeons, to shorten the dps queue
and reward geared tanks for using the LFD multiple times, shortening the dps queue

not anything to do with plate dps gear at all, sorry
(that sed, have seen far too many plate dps gear drop, which ive passed on, only to have tank gear ninjaed from me later by the same git)

-roll a tank

They can implement as many bloody rewards as they want. I will still only tank with my guild and probably a max of 2 RHCs. With the chance of getting a ful HoO clear and Deadmines maybe - that is already 2-3 hours down the drain.

the proposal is there to help new tanks gear themselves

and are you saying you wouldnt do extra runs for more VPs?

[Adis]

An idea on how to make tanking more appealing may be the following.

Change the philosophy how a group works.

Right now tanks are the prime focus of healers and dps should not get damage in the first pace.
In this situation where tank constantly need the healer backup they feel weak.
Alone they can survive a boss just a little longer then a dps.

To fix this and make tanks feel stronger blizzard boosted tank dps in cata but I think they should have done the reverse and boost tank survival (and lower their dps so they don’t go soloing all bosses).

In this new situation tanks would say “Look at me this guy can’t take me down ” and healer job will be more involving because they will have to focus on everyone not just the tank.

This is just an idea so take it with a grain of salt.

[Deleted]

You want more tanks in the LFD? You need to lower the number of stupid people using it.

I remember when I started tanking heroics, in the gear you're supposed to have when you haven't done ANY heroic. I had 110k hp and most groups would kick me before the first pull just because I wasn't ilvl 350. So, if you want more tanks queueing... solve that one first.

[Snikeren]

You know what they say: "don't hate the player, hate the game."
Well, I gotta say that I freakin' hate the players. This game would be so much better without both the elitist bastards and the stupid kids.

[Adis]

you didnt manage to read option 1, so im assuming you didnt read any of it

I'm playing it like you didn't write this.

the plan is ENCOURAGE more tanks to use to LFD system for multiple runs in a day, to shorten dps queues for all
rather than just the initial run for bonus VP

you are complaining about rep epics ("repix") and crafted epic gear, all of which are above the heroic dungeon 346 standard

this will help more tanks get out of the fail regular dungeons, to shorten the dps queue
and reward geared tanks for using the LFD multiple times, shortening the dps queue

My point is that tank already have an easy time to get pre-raid gear (which include reputation and crafted gear) giving them more gear (extra JP/VP == more gear, drop the prices on JP/VP tank gear == more gear) will just make it worse because they will no longer need hc gear so they will queue only for valor point (once / day).

And seriously giving more VP to a specific role is just unbalanced and unfair, splitting it so they have to do more run to get what other role can get in one run is also unbalanced and unfair.

not anything to do with plate dps gear at all, sorry

3 out of 4 tanks classes are plate and and I never played druid as tank, that's why I just pointed out that I'm talking from my experience as plate tank/dps.

(that sed, have seen far too many plate dps gear drop, which ive passed on, only to have tank gear ninjaed from me later by the same git)

I have gotten way to many gear for my tank os because the tank just didn't need the drop. And if someone ninja your tank gear then be happy they will roll tank soon so there will be more tanks in queue (joke). Ninja are ninja I don't think there is anyone playing wow who didn't lose gear to a ninja.

[Varabently]

pity the other thread got so long, there were some good suggestions earlier in the 25+ pages of argument
mostly about getting more ppl to want to tank and helping out those already tanking

to reiterate the better suggestions for ppl who didnt read it all:


1) award extra JP/VP to tanks who COMPLETE consecutive dungeons/heroics

PROS:
this is a good idea, as it will encourage tanks not only to complete dungeons, but to queue again
meaning that dps who have waited 45mins in queue, have a chance of multiple dungeons
also, it will allow tanks to get geared up faster, lowering the chance of wiping
JPs for regs and VPs for heroics, say normal bonus 70 for the first daily, 20 for 2nd, 30 for 3rd and 50 for 4th. then no bonuses after that.
that way, undergeared tanks can earn 346 gear faster, instead of spamming the same 3 reg dungeons forever waiting on bullshit drop rates for 333 gear
and raid tanks can earn their epics, giving them a reason to queue in LFD and help out the general populus more than once a day

CONS:
every herp derp hybrid and his cat will try and tank, refusing to leave, to get JP/VPs to help their main spec dps gear
players capped for JP/VP get no benefit, as there is no "badge sink" currently live in game
mass dps qq about tanks getting extra VPs


2) drop the prices on JP/VP tank gear

PROS:
given the likely mass dps qq over tanks being able to earn more VPs in the first option, despite it lowering the dps queue times
dropping the prices for tank gear seems to be the next most viable option
that way, everyone is still earning equal VP, appeasing the masses, and tanks are able to gear up faster (with ONLY tank gear being cheaper)
more geared tanks == less wipes == faster dungeons == shorter queues

CONS:
this doesnt really give geared tanks any incentive to come back past their initial daily


3) the Oculus bag

PROS:
this one can be implemented on its own OR in addition to options 1 or 2. being the infamous Oculus bag
everyone remembers blizz plan to get ppl to run the hated H Occ with a bag of goodies at the end, being a gem and chance at mount
now before you say it, im NOT implying that tanks should get a chance at a tank only mount
but, perhaps a chance at random materials of increasingly high value for the first 3-4 dungeons per day
anything from a stack of cloth, to gems, to enchanting mats, to pristine hides, to elementium, to chaos orbs, to truegold to whatever
the later more expensive stuff being rarer and only in say 4th dungeon bags
this can be changed and balanced to include whatever
this encourages tanks to complete consecutive dungeons/heroics by providing them with something valuable to either help them gear or AH for gold

CONS:
again, with the masses of dps QQ incoming, despite this being a viable way to shorten the queue they are complaining about in the first place
again with the loads of herp derps trying to tank just for a chance on something valuable
AND adding more RNG into the game like this will inevitably have some crazy luck imbalance
e.g. tank A gets crazy good luck and gets truegold on his 4th dungeon everyday
tank B gets painful fail luck and gets all pristine hides on his plate tank (despite being valuable, but the least useful)
leading to more qq on the forums


these were the best suggestions so far as i can tell
without having crazy "pure>hybrid" implications
there was a good one about having bonus rep gain too, but again, that leaves exalted tanks with no bonuses

also, before anyone asks, i have a mage, a tree drood healer and a pally tank as my 85s, various other 80s that will get looked at later
so im not biased towards tanks OR healers OR dps, okiez :P

TL-DR encouraging current tanks to do consecutive runs and new tanks to gear easier will shorten humungous dps queues

I would go out on a limb and say there is a huge contingency of players who only want one run for the daily and don't want consecutive runs. I had all my heroic gear like two weeks after cata came out. How does this system help me? And others in the same situation. The irony here is you are trying to get people into dungeons faster, which will in turn make them not need dungeons rendering your ideas unused. I don't tink exta jp for tanks is going to make real tanks queue, but as you say will make all the arthasdklol players come out.

[reverendball]

To fix this and make tanks feel stronger blizzard boosted tank dps in cata but I think they should have done the reverse and boost tank survival (and lower their dps so they don’t go soloing all bosses).

This is just an idea so take it with a grain of salt.

i see what you did there, and while thats a decent idea for your average tank and random LFD group, this would break with high gear grps
raid geared grps are already roflstomping heroics LK style, and this is only going to get easy as more and more ppl gain raid gear
the dps need to avoid the avoidable dmg, so the healer can focus on the tank, it is sposed to be heroic mode after all
otherwise smart dps dont get hit, tank takes hardly any dmg, healer never goes oom, grp can fall asleep and aoetankspam autopilot heroics again

it is a decent solution, but blizzard is trying to avoid the LK heroic situation again, at least for a few patches time

You want more tanks in the LFD? You need to lower the number of stupid people using it.

I remember when I started tanking heroics, in the gear you're supposed to have when you haven't done ANY heroic. I had 110k hp and most groups would kick me before the first pull just because I wasn't ilvl 350. So, if you want more tanks queueing... solve that one first.

the point is
A) to enable tanks who are stuck spamming regular dungeons to get JPs easier, so they can get 346 jp gear, and get into heroics
avoiding the 110k tanks in green gear (and 245 toc gear, dont get me started) situation from happening as often as it does
(110k IS far too little for heroics, you should have 130k at the very least, in full 333
with gems and enchants and such even if you were stacking for mitigation stats
im thinking you were in greens and/or possibly unknowingly accidentally cheating the ilvl with bag gear)
and
B) to reward geared tanks for repeatedly completing dungeons and requeing

you are never going to remove all the idiots from the game, thats impossible, but if you put them in more pieces of 346 tank gear, you give a healer a far better chance of carrying them through a successful run

[warlocx]

Make it so groups for HC consist of 1 tank, 2 healers, 7 dps. This will make the queue faster for everyone (except tank maybe). HC dungeon Pug's should give the normal ilvl 346 item only 1~2 extra drops each boss. Maybe more chance on a mount drop if you do a 10 man HC, like the differance between the current 10 and 25 man raids.

[reverendball]

so they will queue only for valor point (once / day).

And seriously giving more VP to a specific role is just unbalanced and unfair, splitting it so they have to do more run to get what other classes can get in one run is also unbalanced and unfair.

you still didnt read option one properly

it would reward more than once a day, l2read

and having it unbalanced was in the CONS list, l2read

if you are against option 1, which you are, then look at the OTHER options, which will in turn, require more reading before posting kthnxbai

I would go out on a limb and say there is a huge contingency of players who only want one run for the daily and don't want consecutive runs. I had all my heroic gear like two weeks after cata came out. How does this system help me? And others in the same situation. The irony here is you are trying to get people into dungeons faster, which will in turn make them not need dungeons rendering your ideas unused. I don't tink exta jp for tanks is going to make real tanks queue, but as you say will make all the arthasdklol players come out.

you obviously only read option 1, possibly option 2 as well
option 3 is the most viable option for getting geared tanks to requeue, l2read
its not entirely unviable to implement multiple options
a combination of 2 and 3 seems to be the most likely to work
but prob with random mats bags for all at the completion at multiples, to avoid qq about unbalance

sigh at so many posts where people didnt read the original post properly

[angelsdeath]

I do my one random heroic dungeon a day, yes, always with at least 3 guildies. I do my one random heroic a day for valor points and valor points only. If I have more time to play I might do a full guild run of a random or specific dungeon to help out a friend. The only viable option I saw to get me to run extra randoms out of your suggestions was the "Oculus bag" and that would only be if it did contain a tank only mount. Some of us can't play for 8 hours a day. Those of us who can't don't wanna spend our valuable time babysitting mongoloids in a random heroic.

[v2nkata]

Making tanks get more JPs and making them get their gear faster is the worst idea. Why? Because if they get the gear faster they'll do less hcs and they'll get to the point when they dont need hcs faster.

[Seriss]

Maybe it's a glaring oversight on my part, but how does any of this provide an incentive for me to not participate in a crazily chaotic but extremely fun guild run but to, instead, queue in the random dungeon finder and throw myself at the mercy of 3 potentially retarded random DPS and a potentially moody tank?

Just throwing that out there.

This is healer POV. I imagine it for tanks to be about much the same.

I wish to add that the few tanks that I've got when we couldn't get a guildie to tank for us were quite decent and lovely even if they weren't pro. My experiences with random tanks are 90% nice - but there's always that rotten apple. As for DPS... You can afford picking up ONE from the LFG to fill up your guild group, but more than that is a gamble. I'm sorry, but that's what my beaten and bruised healer experience tells me

[reverendball]

Making tanks get more JPs and making them get their gear faster is the worst idea. Why? Because if they get the gear faster they'll do less hcs and they'll get to the point when they dont need hcs faster.

sigh, so you didnt see option 3?

and wen the next patch drops, and everyones VP count is zeroed
and VPs can buy the next set of raid gear
and EVERY TANK is spamming heroics because they get VPs for consecutive completions
......
????
PROFIT

Maybe it's a glaring oversight on my part, but how does any of this provide an incentive for me to not participate in a crazily chaotic but extremely fun guild run but to, instead, queue in the random dungeon finder and throw myself at the mercy of 3 potentially retarded random DPS and a potentially moody tank?

Just throwing that out there.

This is healer POV. I imagine it for tanks to be about much the same.

i totally agree, and it is painful healing at the moment
but given there is a healer queue, with it being 5-10 mins depending on server time
giving incentives for healing is not going to shorten the queue at all, being the point of the thread

however i did at least think about it, the problem being
given that shadow priests AND boomkin AND elemental shamans all share spi gear with healers, that destroys option 2 flat out

im all for option one/three being implemented for healers tho, given the effort that goes into it
problem being that having those incentives on 2 roles greatly compounds the problems in the CONS list
if theres mass tanks cheating ilvl hoping to get carried to free VPs
and hybrid dps going offspec heals doing the same.........
yes it will shorten the queue, but the quality of runs will fall through the floor til we greatly outgear the content

[Deleted]

Whtever is done one thing will ALWAYS remain the same - There will always be more than 3:1 DPS players queuing, nothing is gonna change that.

[Deleted]

As I posted on another thread plate tanks already have an easy time gearing, compered to plate dps. Which mean most of the time they will do only one random hc for valor points and probably most of the tank do it with guild.

So all of the above suggestion will make the situation worse because they will increase the speed tank get their gear even more.

Most tanks from my experience also have a dps spec which requires totally different gear so even if they got twice the number of VP compared to the DPS they wouldnt gear up faster. There are also BoEs for sale for VPs (none for JP though that is correct) so getting extra of those doesnt hurt.

[lancore89]

If you make it even easier to gear up as tank, you actually will raise your queue as DPS.
There is no reason to go into a heroic besides the daily if you have your BiS Raid equip. Which happens pretty fast especially as Tank.

[Thatwsntmilk]

If you raise rewards for tanks, only the number of bad tanks queueing will rise.

There is a simple solution:
If you want to encourage decent tanks to queue simply don't fail that much as DPS. This will lead to less frustration for said tanks and therefore to more tanks queueing and shorter queue times for DPS.

[Deleted]

You want more tanks in the LFD? You need to lower the number of stupid people using it.

I remember when I started tanking heroics, in the gear you're supposed to have when you haven't done ANY heroic. I had 110k hp and most groups would kick me before the first pull just because I wasn't ilvl 350. So, if you want more tanks queueing... solve that one first.

To be fair if you didnt have a bigger hp pool then you were prob doing something wrong. I dont remember the exact amount I had when I entered my first Cata hc but I can promise you it was a lot more than that. Since I made some misstakes during leveling and didnt replace all ICC bits I had to wait a few days to reach the gear ilvl cap to queue up but its not like I ran normals for weeks.